no knowledge, but only conjecture

[jimi]

Jesus was not crucified.  Early Christians did not accept the crucifixion of Jesus and Jews denied Jesus as the Messiah because of this false teaching. Here is the evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4KW-dysKk

[resistingrexmundi]

Early Christians did not accept the crucifixion of Jesus

As has been pointed out in the above posts the earliest record of first century Christianity is the Epistles, Acts of the apostles, and Gospels. All of these sources state emphatically that Jesus was crucified and conquered death by resurrecting on the third day. Furthermore even if the above quote were true it still suggests that they were in agreement thereby undermining Muhammad's "revelation" that they had only conjectures.

Jews denied Jesus as the Messiah because of this false teaching

What false teaching? That Jesus was crucified? That He wasn't?

If you are suggesting that they rejected Jesus as the Messiah because the Christians claimed He had not been crucified then two problems arise with your argument. 1. You are calling the teaching of Him not being crucified false effectively deflating your point of view. 2. The fact that He was crucified put the death knell in many of them accepting Jesus as the Messiah, because the very fact that He suffered death proved to them He couldn't be the Messiah. A claim they still use today. So they had no problem agreeing that He had indeed been crucified.

2. If you are suggesting that the Jews didn't accept Him as the Messiah because the Christians taught He was crucified then they would agree. Problem is you stated that the early Christians didn't accept that view. Your post needs some clarity. As it is contradictory in nature.

As for your evidence someone else will have to address the youtube video as I have dial up and cannot view youtube videos.

[Peter]

Pete asks what do i think happen to Jesus?

Answer: One of his disciples took up the cross and gave his life knowing that Jesus would raise him back from the dead.

1. Where does Mohammed say this in the Quran? Where did you learn that from?

2. Why would Jesus do that when He could be the one raised from the dead?

[Peter]

Jesus was not crucified.  Early Christians did not accept the crucifixion of Jesus and Jews denied Jesus as the Messiah because of this false teaching. Here is the evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4KW-dysKk

I explore another video done by that foolish old deceiver Dirks on the Deen show here
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=488.0

Jimi, the simple fact of the matter is that over the entire 2,000 years of Christianity there has never been such a thing as a Christian that didn't believe Jesus sacrificed Himself to save all who believe in His shed blood from sin. If someone didn't believe that they wouldn't be a Christian - simple as that.
The Gospel, which means "Good News" or "glad tidings" is the news that Jesus gave Himself on the cross so we could be saved. It is what the Gospel IS.

Do you believe that the first drop of blood shed by a Muslim so-called "martyr" may provide propitiation for the sin of 70 of his nearest and dearest friends and relatives?

[jimi]

Dr. Dirks refers to several early Christians who rejected the crucifixion and mentions verses from the Apocrypha including The Apocalypse of Peter and The Acts of John:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/actsjohn.html

I think these are proofs that there is evidence in the historical record that Jesus was not crucified and that several early Christian congregations rejected the crucifixion.

What false teaching? That Jesus was crucified? That He wasn't?

It is clear that the crucifixion is a false teaching according to the Biblical verses I mentioned earlier, also the fact that the Jews believe that the Messiah will not be killed. Because modern Christians contend that the Messiah was killed, the Jews reject Jesus Christ.

The Gospel, which means "Good News" or "glad tidings" is the news that Jesus gave Himself on the cross so we could be saved. It is what the Gospel IS.

The 'good news' of the Gospel is the Kingdom of God that few were able to understand: "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given... they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matthew 13.11,13

[resistingrexmundi]

It is clear that the crucifixion is a false teaching according to the Biblical verses I mentioned earlier

What biblical verses? The Apocalypse of Peter? The Acts of John? The irony is you discount the Gospels, Acts and Revelation though all have been dated to the first century yet you want to support your theory with writings that came in the second or third centuries, or even later. They don't even come close to the earliest records we have. Again your opinion is based on people writing hundreds of years after the fact. Furthermore all of those writings completely ignore the secular records which date to the first century validating the crucifixion.

also the fact that the Jews believe that the Messiah will not be killed

This is the views of the Jews that did not have ears to hear. Which you unwittingly referenced from Matthew 13. Those Jews ignored all of the OT scriptures that mentioned His death. One of the most prominent one being Daniel. They emphasized the conquering Saviour half of His ministry so much that they rejected the half mentioning His death and ressurection.

Dan 9:26   And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 

Psa 16:10   For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 

The point is rejection of Jesus' sacrafice for the sins of many is rejecting the only way to be saved from the wrath of God as we are all deserving of His judgement as sinners.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

Again fortold in the OT.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 

God bless

[Peter]

Indeed. From many hundreds of years before Jesus was revealed to us.

Psalms 22:16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.    17  I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.    18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

"That day" is considerably different than Mohammed taught

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

[jimi]

What biblical verses?...

These Biblical verses:

For I spake not... concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God..."

Jeremiah 7.22-24

"I desire obediance not sacrifice."

Matthew 9.13, 12.7; Hosea 6:6

[resistingrexmundi]

The verses in Jeremiah and Hosea speak of the spirit of the Law. Which is a penatent heart turned toward God. Jesus was pointing this out to the pharisees as they taught salvation through adherence to the Law yet neglected the intent of the heart. And as I have already pointed out, and what can be witnessed in our everyday life, that what God desires and what we, as fallen creatures, give Him are not always the same. God does indeed desire mercy and not sacrafice. God is merciful and just. As a just God He must abide by His word.

Exd 10:17 Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

God has to keep His word. He told Adam and Eve that should they disobey Him they would die. They did and as a result a death sentence was passed. God in His mercy decided to reconcile man to Him by making the atonement for sin. He robed Himself in flesh and recieved the penalty of death for us.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

God does not desire for us to sacrifice because He has mercy on us, and likewise we are to have mercy towards one another. The major point you are missing is that Jesus' death on the cross IS the mercy of God. The pharisees weren't offering Jesus as a sacrafice. Jesus was offering Himself by laying down His life for all that would recieve God's salvation.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

And should we keep His commandments to love Him with all our heart, and to love one another as we love ourselves we will be rewarded for our mercy.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 

Only if we accept God's mercy through Jesus can we obtain mercy.

God bless

[jimi]

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Deuteronomy 24.16

[resistingrexmundi]

That verse is a levitical code for the priest to use in matters of civil cases. It is instructing the priests to not pass judgment on the son for the sins of the father. Jesus as God was not passing judgement on Himself because He was guiltless and without sin. He was offering Himself as an atonement, not as a judgement. You are making the same mistake that the pharisees made and try to use the letter of the Law to anull the spirit of the Law.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. 

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. 

Jesus was not judged to be guilty of His fathers sin, no more than any offering given up to God in the OT was guilty of anything. In fact the passover lamb was still young and unblemished expressing its' innocence.

God bless

[jimi]

That verse has nothing to do with sacrifice:

"I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people...

"Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."
Leviticus 10,12-14

These verses refer to the consumption of blood! You are making the mistake not me; these verses have nothing to do with the 'spirit' of the Law:

You ...try to use the letter of the Law to anull the spirit of the Law.

Have you anulled the letter of this law too? And does that mean you are therefore cut off? "Cut off" is very serious, it means like you are out of touch, discarded or exiled.  I think thats what happens to people who don't follow Gods Law and its quite obvious when you start to accuse me of anulling the Law that you yourself don't even follow.

Do you resistingrexmundi? Can you really accuse me of anulling the law?

[Peter]

Can you really accuse me of anulling the law?

Are you a Jew whom God made that covanant with in the first place?
Are you suggesting that you follow the 613 Mosaic laws?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=10&v=14&t=KJV#10

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Certainly Mohammed didn't follow any law of any kind, including those of civil society. He murdered people, plundered caravans, fornicated with concubines, and even devoted a whole chapter in the quran detailing the disposition of property that Muslims steal from others, including Mohammed's 1/5 share (like a Mafia Don) - 8 - AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

Jimi, you are loosing the big picture by trying to get lost in details. Do you really think God would nullify the 1600 year record of His word, delivered through all of the prophets and apostles, that God's people have followed for 3500 years through two covenants - with the unwitnessed testimony of a single, 7th century murdering thief, who was and taught the exact opposite of Jesus Christ?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=336.0

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So where does that put Mohammed, jimi?
Let's start with Mohammed's caravan plundering. Can you deny that you follow a thief?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vchc7lOrZWk&feature=PlayList&p=8266054CD6D3748D&index=0&playnext=1

[Peter]

Jimi please let me ask you a question.
If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He?

[resistingrexmundi]

That verse has nothing to do with sacrifice:

Really? Huh...well enlighten me...what is an altar used for?

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. 

The broader point being made in the surrounding verses show that the life of the flesh is blood and was meant to be given as an ATONEMENT FOR THE SOUL. Jesus' shed blood was the only blood acceptable for the atonement of every soul from then to perpetuity. As He stated in the verse I offered next.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

And I am not accusing you of anything. You are accusing yourself by proof texting verses to fit your warped view of atonement and Jesus' salvation.

"Cut off" is very serious, it means like you are out of touch, discarded or exiled.

Actually this term means killed. Another verse in which it is used in such manner is this one.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 

And look at that. We are full circle right back to the Messiah being killed for others sake. Not his own.

  I think thats what happens to people who don't follow Gods Law and its quite obvious when you start to accuse me of anulling the Law that you yourself don't even follow

Here inlies the problem with Islam. It teaches nearly nothing with assurity. Muhammad didn't even know if he was going to heaven.http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=580.0 here is a link discussing that matter. And I KNOW for a fact that I follow the law of God. You want to know how?


Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 

Mat 22:36   Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? 

Mat 22:37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 

Mat 22:38   This is the first and great commandment. 

Mat 22:39   And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 

Mat 22:40   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 

All who have accepted Jesus' gift of salvation are saved by grace through faith. We are to love God with all our hearts and love one another as ourselves. In these two commandments we are keeping the spirit of the law. Rigid punishment and a legalistic approach to the application of law do nothing to treat the root of the problem.

[jimi]

"...And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."  

Mark 12.33-34

[Peter]

"...And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."  

Mark 12.33-34

That's right jimi, as your verse begins there is but one God. "...for there is one God; and there is none other but he..."

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

God revealed Himself to us through Jesus Christ - the Word made flesh. Even you believe Jesus was sin free. How could just another prophet, or any man on earth, be sin free?
The mediator of the new covenant:

Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

He became that one sacrifice for all:

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Our only mediator:

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And when we can truly love everyone just as ourselves, the rest of the law falls neatly into place.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[jimi]

Thanks Pete but I'm still waiting for resistingexmundi to respond:

"...is MORE than ALL whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 

Mark 12.33-34

And look at that. We are full circle right back to the Messiah...

Right back to my original point that obediance is more than all offerings and sacrifice; that the crucifixion is not the main message of the Bible but obeying the Word of God is: "Go learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'"

[Peter]

Thanks Pete but I'm still waiting for resistingexmundi to respond:

But you didn't respond to my posts. Please forgive me if you are still working on them.

"...is MORE than ALL whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."  

Mark 12.33-34

And look at that. We are full circle right back to the Messiah...

Right back to my original point that obediance is more than all offerings and sacrifice; that the crucifixion is not the main message of the Bible but obeying the Word of God is: "Go learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'"

It says that to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves is more than whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Does the Gospel suggest that is sufficient for salvation, or did the verse you proof texted simply begin to clarify the relative importance of things? How can we love God? By doing His will as revealed through His Word.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Unless you never committed a sin, jimi, you need to be washed or you will die in your sins.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Divorcing a verse from it's context in a failed effort to pretend the Gospel offers any support whatsoever for the false prophet Mohammed's 7th century religion, will only continue to keep you condemned. Particularly since Mohammed's is a stand-alone religion that is the exact opposite of the Gospel. To follow Mohammed's 23 year record you must reject the 1600 year record of Word of God, as revealed through all of the prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed for 3500 years.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

[jimi]

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

1. No.

2. Yes.

[resistingrexmundi]

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

1. No.

2. Yes.

Then by your first answer you deny that God is all powerful. He manifested Himself many ways throughout history. As a burning bush, as a cloud, as a pillar of fire, etc. You have essentially relegated God to what your mind can fit around. Trying to finitely explain the infinite.

And as for your second response. I suppose you could deny that you follow a theif. But it is a denial of islamic history as related through the hadiths and the koran. A whole chapter in the koran is on the spoils of war or booty. Stealing is stealing. The Bible takes a strong stance on this issue. Even to the point of condemning the act of coveting in your heart. Muhammad stole. Period. Instead of admitting it and asking for forgiveness he instead made justifications for his lewd and base behaviour by declaring it fit so long as you do so against those who don't follow islam. Muhammad stole possesions, wives, lives, and probably the most disgusting, the innocence of a nine year old girl. He is every bit the theif in action and coveteousness.

[Peter]

Let me ask you again jimi:

1. If God wanted to reveal Himself to us as a man in the flesh and walk among us, could He? If God wanted to do that, and buy the house next door to you and move in, could He, if He so chose to do so?

2. And let me also ask again, can you deny that you follow a thief?

1. No.

That's quite a sad admission regarding your "Allah".
I'm glad my God is without limit. Particularly without the limits of the imagination of a single 7th century desert dwelling illiterate.

2. Yes.

Come on jimi. Either you've never read the Quran, or you're being dishonest. There is a whole chapter titled
8 - AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)
That even details Mohammed's 1/5 share - just like a Mafia Don - of the property stolen from others.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/008.qmt.html

That property even including capturing and sexually enslaving girls and women - married and unmarried - as part of the spoils of war. Even including instruction regarding pimping out one's sex slaves as prostitutes.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The Islamic First Jihad imperialistic slaughter and theft reached all the way up to France and Austria.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=battle+of+tours&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

Did you ever ask yourself how you would like it if a band of thieves came to your property, stole all your livestock, broke down the door to your house and stole everything you worked all your life for, and kidnapped and pressed your 9 year old daughter and wife into sexual slavery?
Do you really believe that could possibly be of God?
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/islam-slavery-and-rape/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhSejBDTPI
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=islam+sexual+slavery&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

[jimi]

Pete,

You assume too much.

[resistingrexmundi]

Expound. Enlighten us jimi.

[jimi]

i don't find these questions relevant to this topic.

lets start another: Manifestation of God