Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on May 03, 2010, 08:16:40 AM
You will see many instances of people trying to place themselves on a higher plane of existence than Jesus. Noone was better than this than Muhammad. He could not bear having an authority greater than his. So he concocted his religion with a god that conveniently capitulated to Muhammad's every whim.

More later.

It struck me in an odd way yesterday that what Muhammad really did was take the Commandments of God and placed with his moon god.

Quote from: Peter on July 25, 2010, 05:24:17 AM
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1567.msg6887#msg6887

That link appears to be off limits Pete

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on July 25, 2010, 09:52:51 AM
What muslims do not bow to Mecca to pray?

That is what I thought. But it appears some pray towards Jerusalem instead of Mecca.

What struck me, is that with the Dome of the Rock on the Holy Place, Jerusalem itself has become the city of an antichrist. The Israelites are frequently shown to be in rebuke for playing the harlot in the Old Testament.
With the loss of Jerusalem, two antichrists have been fighting each other over the city ever since.

Quote from: A Christian Brother on July 20, 2010, 08:54:55 PM
Hello. 
Revelation 17:3-5, 9
3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.
5 This title was written on her forehead:
      MYSTERY
      BABYLON THE GREAT
      THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
      AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

It strikes me that Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 are talking about two beasts. Yet I can see both being Islam.

This has only just become known to me that not all Muslims face Muhammad's Mecca (City on 7 hills) when they pray, some face Jerusalem instead. That has brought home to me the two major Islamic sects of Sunni and Shia.

So could it be then that the one beast is the Sunni Muslim and the other the Shia Muslim?

Much thanks. 

Something came to me this morning that I had not considered before.

That second Beast could also be Israel!

Weren't the israeltes often rebuked for playing the harlot? And Jerusalem itself sits on seven hills.

Israel today is an Antichrist.

Hello. 

I'll add this here as it is related.

I had a thought today which might need looking in to further.

Revelation 13: 1-2
1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Then:

Revelation 17:3-5, 9
3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.
5 This title was written on her forehead:
      MYSTERY
      BABYLON THE GREAT
      THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
      AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

It strikes me that Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 are talking about two beasts. Yet I can see both being Islam.

This has only just become known to me that not all Muslims face Muhammad's Mecca (City on 7 hills) when they pray, some face Jerusalem instead. That has brought home to me the two major Islamic sects of Sunni and Shia.

So could it be then that the one beast is the Sunni Muslim and the other the Shia Muslim?

Much thanks. 

Hello Peter the Bible I quoted from is the NIV.

Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea....

Several other versions say the same, but some also quote as you have put:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea....

There is a very big difference there. I am wandering how that has come about. Obviously John is not the dragon, so how could that be confused?

I don't know why but your reply surprised me Peter.

But the three head beast. I keep referring to it as that for some reason. An old habit perhaps. I do mean this though:

Revelation 13:  1-2
1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion

Who or what is that dragon?

You have answered that question Peter.

Now I am not at all sure about this, but wasn't Muhammad rejected by his own, and wasn't it a military group from elsewhere that first accepted Him. Did they come from what was once Babylon?

Yes. that is exactly my point Peter. At the time John had the Revelation Muhammad had not yet come.

I am also questioning this:

Early on, Before Islam, the only things that fitted was Rome. That idea remains even in the marginal notes of Bibles that we have today. So following that tradition it become the Roman Catholic Church. Then everyone may be following a Red Herring.

I am questioning is one of the kings mentioned Adolph Hitler who gave authority to the Beast - The Grand Mufti?

Babylon mother of Harlots - All nations do play the whore with Islam - oil marble, incense.

Babylon was the first of the four beasts in the Book of Daniel. So is Babylon then the "parent Beast" of the three headed beast in the Book of Revelation?

Revelation :17;19
9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

7 hills of Mecca

1) Jabal abu Siba'
2) Jabal Safa
3) Jabal Marwah
4) Jabal abu Milhah
5) Jabal abu Ma'aya
6) Jabal abu Hulayah
7) Jabal abu Ghuzlan

Revelation 17:10
10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.
11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

The one who is "the other has not yet come" in verse 10, could that even be the false Prophet Muhammad?

For want of a better title perhaps.

Islam claims to believe ALL of the prophets. Yet John the Baptist was a prophet. I'll come back to him.

Islam wants the world to believe Jesus came as the Messiah for the Jews, but he failed and was recalled - as if to regroup before another planned assault. While for the gentiles God gave the world Muhammad as Messiah. However, where Jesus is said to have failed Muhammad succeeded.

Yet logic alone dictates something is not quite right about all of this.

When Jesus was conceived, it was announced by The Angel Gabriel. Mary was just one of a small nation of people set apart from the larger world. Yet, for that larger world, the equivalent of Jesus was not considered worth announcing! His birth went quietly - unnoticed even. Isn't it odd that the smaller nation should find it's Messiah worth announcing, and the one for the rest of the world not worth announcing?

Not only is Jesus the only person to be announced to the world, he is the only one to have his ministry announced to the world. This was not the case with Muhammad, again no announcement. That failure should be telling if Muhammad were all he claimed to be. there should be questions as to why.

But then we look at what John the Baptist, the Prophet who announced Jesus, had to say on things:

Now this is from John the Apostles' Gospel, so those with doubts about the other Gospels need not doubt this. John walked with Jesus and knew what was what.

John 1: 29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

That is what John the Baptist said of Jesus. A little further and John said this:

john 3: 35
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Muhammad did two things. He denied the Father and the Son, so according to John the Baptist God's wrath remained in Muhammad. A startling conviction from John the Baptist, whom Muhammad did not believe. But Muhammad did not believe this either:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Muhammad also denied the Spirit of God, and it was in that state that he died. According to the Prophet John the Baptist, Muhammad died with God's wrath still in him.

So did Muhammad really believe ALL of the prophets?

In what Muhammad had done, he set up a religion that forbid it's followers to recognise the Holy Spirit, and the Son of God, therefore ensuring Gods' wrath remains in them. It is even said to be a great sin if a Muslim calls themselves a son or daughter of God.

He may even have left a mocking gift for the followers of Islam:

Matthew 7:9,11
9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Muhammad gave a stone. A black kaaba stone in which there is neither life nor light. This is the exact opposite of Jesus, Gods' gift to mankind, who is that Great living Rock in whom is the light of mankind.

....

At this point I am keeping an open mind, given that Mecca also sits on seven hills.

There is a ritual in Islamic Jihad in which they cut their heads and drench themselves in blood. So I can also see that as being this:

Revelation 17:4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

and for this:

Revelation 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The crusades for the freeing of Jerusalem of the Abomination of Desolation can also fit there.

I am open minded because Holy People have steeped forward from out of The Roman Catholic Church.
Something which we should not forget is that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, and that includes those of the members of The Roman Catholic Church.

At this point my mind is open on this issue, but I am more convinced at this time that it is Islam and not Rome. With Muhammad being the false prophet.

A little while ago I was reading the Book of Revelation. I am confident that The Roman Catholic Church is not the Beast of Babylon. It is called Babylon and not Rome. The Roman Catholic Church has always confessed The father and The Son, and while Rome sits on seven hills, so does Jerusalem and so does Mecca.
I asked God what He was doing with The Roman Catholic Church because at the same time I do see Rome as the Beast that gave authority to the three headed beast.
I envisioned a large golden box like a footstool in which where trapped all evils. I envisioned the monstrance that holds the Eucharistic Host, and that is the verse of scripture that came to me.

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
      until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet."

I do wander if Rome is part of the fulfillment of this:

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
      until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet."

Strange how all that pagan symbolism has now come to be used by Rome.
Though maybe not so strange.

Quote from: Peter on April 15, 2010, 09:17:10 AM

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 15, 2010, 08:56:37 AM

QuoteAs you know, some argue that Jesus is not risen. That he is dead. Some say the apostles broke in and stole the body.

The most damning evidence brought against that detestable lie is the fact that these men died for their belief. If it had been a lie they would have said so to prevent their demise. Muhammad certainly wasn't prepared to die for his beliefs.

"Unshakable Witness"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4rtYAO3UxA

Compared to Mohammed the Coward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1MiLqH0jc

I Love it.
That unshakable witness!!!

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on April 15, 2010, 08:56:37 AM

QuoteAs you know, some argue that Jesus is not risen. That he is dead. Some say the apostles broke in and stole the body.

The most damning evidence brought against that detestable lie is the fact that these men died for their belief. If it had been a lie they would have said so to prevent their demise. Muhammad certainly wasn't prepared to die for his beliefs.

What! And you're not kidding!
He would have lined everyone else up to save him first!

I have been having a thing about this at various times throughout the day, and have come to a conclusion.

As you know, some argue that Jesus is not risen. That he is dead. Some say the apostles broke in and stole the body.

But would anyone have thought of actually folding the napkin? That is so neat, it's brilliant.

I really like that. "I'm not finished yet."

What a great post. Thanks very much.

Quote from: Peter on March 26, 2010, 08:06:20 AM
I just expanded and embellished with links

Yes. you did Peter. My apologies, I did not intend to appear rude. I shall be looking further in to each of those.
What actually made me thing "cults" was I noticed Victor Paul Wierwille had not been mentioned - though perhaps the Way International has become a bit of a non runner.

You have been a great help. For which I thank you very much. 

God Bless

I think I will see if I can find out more on these cults.

I have just checked this out after following the link, provided by resistingrexmundi, which is alarming:

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/adventist.html

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on March 26, 2010, 05:25:00 AM
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Prophets in that everything they prophesied, every turning point in human history, was to set the stage for His coming.

QuoteI have pointed out to them that, as I see it, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Prophets, and prophesy is a gift of the Holy spirit; therefore there will be no more prophets after Christ.
I do not know what they teach exactly, so I will need to look in to what these other heretic teachings are.

If that were the case then John the revelator would have been a false Prophet. My comment about Ellen White was aimed at her false prophecy. Not the fact that she came after Christ.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ellen+white+sda+cult&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8 Here is a page Pete provided in another post detailing more of the things I mentioned.

God bless you too.

The prophesies from John in Revelation came through the Holy Spirit. The Book of Revelation tells us that John was resting in Spirit.

Revelation 1:10
10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

I don't think John went about claiming himself to be a prophet. This the difference.

As soon as I read on the SDA website that Ellen G White was seen as God's endtime messenger, alarm bells started ringing.
Thanks for the link. I'll be checking that out.

God Bless

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on March 26, 2010, 02:20:08 AM
The Messianics I have no problem with joining in hand in hand as a fellow brother or sister in Christ. SDAs however follow the teachings of the false prophetess Ellen White. They have other heretical teachings that keep me at a distance as well. Suffice it to say that I will not sacrafice truth on the alter of tolerance just so I don't ruffle their feathers. Neither should you. I know you don't wish to insult them or seem disrespectful but if they are in err it is better to be direct and say as much. Jesus certainly had no issue doing that to the Pharisees.

I have pointed out to them that, as I see it, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Prophets, and prophesy is a gift of the Holy spirit; therefore there will be no more prophets after Christ.
I do not know what they teach exactly, so I will need to look in to what these other heretic teachings are.

God Bless.

Quote from: Azlan on March 25, 2010, 08:24:02 AM
.....
Go and pray to your lord and i pray to mine. but pleasee don't quarrel about WHICH RELIGION IS RIGHT AND WHOSE WRONG. That's not our will to decide. Peace to you Brothers and Sisters, I pray for the muslims and christians to be at good health, prosper and not to forget, peace....

May Jesus and Allah bless us all..


Im sorry If there are any words that may hurt anyone of you. Do correct me if I'm at wrong.

Hello Azlan.
While I detect your heart is good, i have noticed a slight problem with what you are suggesting. I have highlighted it in Blue.
Let me put this in a way that might be acceptable to you. you have recognised that we have different Lords. So what would our own Lords tell us? Yours will no doubt say that you are right and that you should hold on to what you have got. So too will mine! The result would be that we would not be any closer.

Jesus said this:

Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

Notice that the word Jesus gave was love rather than just obey.

This means that if we truly love God then we cannot compromise. We are to hold firm to what we have got and love.

Rather than you pray to your lord, what I would recommend is this, and I hope that this is acceptable to you; Ask the God of Abraham to guide you in His truth. The God of Abraham - address him as that. Tell Him that you want His Truth. Only His truth is good enough. Mean it with your heart. Ask the God of Abraham to guide you in His truth.

I pray that you come to recognise the great love that God has given to us, through He who is Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

May God truly Bless you Azlan.

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on March 25, 2010, 08:33:24 AM
It seems the reason these things are such hang ups for Messianics and SDA's is because they have not been able to look beyond the letter of the Law to the Spirit of the Law.
.....

I stated that in one of the posts.
I began to get the impression from them that holiness is thought to be over there, or in something else.

I am however convinced that they are Christians - just confused ones.

Quote from: Peter on March 24, 2010, 08:23:35 PM
I imagine you mean this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_nKSUwvf6g
It is someone else's video that I uploaded so I could use it as a "video response" to the Messianic "your going to burn in hell if you worship Christ on Sunday" crowd. I credited the originator on the video. Chatted with him. Good guy.

yeah. That's the one. Excellent video. I must admit i didn't notice the credit.

My argument that I have been putting forward is this.

Since the day of Pentecost, believers have become the temple of God. So shouldn't we consider every day as being Holy? We can now rest in the Lord any day.  Sabbath fulfilled even if we do commemorate the Lord's day on the first day of the week. At the end of the day (no pun intended) as I see it, no day is holier than we ourselves are prepared to be - with God's help that is.

God Bless you Peter.