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Messages - Summadat

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1
Islam - General / Lies about God
« on: November 04, 2008, 02:05:16 AM »
The moderator of this site uses a quote:
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

And then he goes on to profess: "Jesus was both fully man and fully God at the same time..."

Even the most knowledgeable man on earth can NEVER explain this concept. Jesus himself never said such a thing.  Who gave 'Pete' the authority to say such a thing about Jesus? Ask him.  But let us take a brief look at this inconceivable postulation.

'Jesus was both fully man and fully god at the same time'

The first beckons of common sense would cause anyone to do a double-take when they hear such a statement. What? How can that be true? How can two be extremely different, but exactly the same?  Let us apply a few fool-proof tests to that stupefying theory.

Pete believes in the bible.
-In his bible, it says 'God cannot be tempted by the devil.'

-In his bible, it also says 'Jesus was tempted by the devil'

Question, if Pete is right in his saying that Jesus is fully man and fully god, why is it that Jesus can be tempted?
 
Analogy: Well Jesus was fully man, and all men are reachable by the devil. God is not...how can you consider them the same?   Suppose I show you a car, and I say- its fully operable; then you try to drive it, and it does not work. Then you ask me why it does not, and I tell you its fully inoperable; you will know that I said two very contradictory things- perhaps lied. Either the car operates or it does not.  And if I was a salesman at a car lot, you would leave immediately, and accuse me of being sleazy.

If I come selling you bottled water, and you looked at my bottles of water and see that the liquid is orange, and you ask me what happened to it? I say well its pure water. You ask me well why is it orange; I say its pure orange juice.  You'll look at me and laugh, then walk away. You wouldn't even believe it was orange juice! I have completely lost credibility with you. Either you would think I am clinically a mental case, or that you were on some kind of hidden-camera pranks.

If I come to you proclaiming that I am the teacher of the class, and you come to class, see me waiting in a seat for the lecturer to show up- either you would think that I am not the teacher of that particular class or that I was lying to you.

When a man goes to a doctor and says 'I am a lady, literally'.  The doctor examines his physiology and sees nothing to attest to this, and says, well sir you are not a woman, you're a man. Then he says, yeah, I am bothfully  a man and fully a woman at the same time.  If the man says this with a serious face, the doctor will put him on psyche meds.

If I come to your stricken home, invite your family to come get a free  car from my gallery of new cars; and then you show up to see the cars and then I show you a cabbage plantation, and say see! Pick anyone you want. You and ur loved ones will look at me and say: well this is cabbage, you told us to come for cars. Then I say, well yeah, these are fully cars and fully cabbages at the same time.  You and ur loved ones might either beat the sense out of me for wasting your time, or curse at me without limits.

My point is, Pete, your motto is a quote:
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

How can you reconcile fully god and fully man in the same sentence? How can you reconcile operable and inoperable as the simultaneous description of an object, how can you reconcile dead and alive as describing the same object? How can you compare mortal and immortal as being the same? How can you reconcile the one who farts with the One who is Pure? 

How do you reconcile the One who can do Everything as being the one who can do nothing?  How do you explain that the one who worships is the one who is supposed to be worshipped?

If the truth is to be told, it will be understood.  If you make a simple statement that carries heavy contradictions, how do you make someone understand it? What you do not see however, is that lies cannot be understood as anything other than lies- especially when it is placed beside the truth.

Again, I take this time to invite you to Islam- the Truth. And once you've heard the truth, you'll know it is the truth.  Know these things:  Even the devil knows that there is One God. The devil knows this. Knowing this, and knowing his punishment- just as real as you know your own name- the devil still chooses to disobey God- even though he had DIRECT orders from God, not through a prophet, not through other angels; but from God Himself. Yet the devil disobeyed.  You still have options while you are alive- so that you can correct those things that you have did wrong. You have time left, if God so Wills.  So what will you do? Will you keep propagating something that Jesus himself have never taught? Or will you learn from those things strictly that have been directly narrated from the Prophet?

Will you then enter into Islam, seeking to serve Only God, the One Who Created you?


PS- before you make a quote from the bible, be aware that most of the books of the bible have authors that are unknown to everyone alive except God.  What I mean is that noone knows who wrote John- though they speculate. Noone knows who wrote Matthew- though they speculate. Noone can say 'the author of Matthew is 'X', born in 'Y', son of 'Z'...etc'. Meaning noone except God knows their identity.  If someone is to come to deliver you a message- the first thing you will ask is: who is it from? And if you do not know the sender, then you simply ignore the message.  Surely, an important message from someone who knows its importance will include the unmistakeable author of that message.

Peace man.

2
The Quran and Hadith / Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: August 13, 2008, 04:13:01 AM »
doctored photos...that is your evidence!!!? You are plainly ignorant indeed!  It would be most ignorant of me had I post pictures of a christian woman in a porn video, or a pastor being arrested for murder.  But you stoop to the lowest levels of stupidity and irrelevance.

3
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 13, 2008, 04:10:27 AM »
And again you lied...you said:

You act as though we haven't had the extensive exchange that we have. Over a hundred verses in the Quran suggest violence against non-Muslims in the dar el harb. For example:

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Fundamental Muslims understand what to do:
In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church.  The note left behind reads:  "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."


Well the full verse is: Surah 8:12
  Remember when you Lord revealed to the angels: 'Verily I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all fingers and toes...

It was a verse of retrospect giving a lesson.  It is not an instructive to kill innocent folk as you have deceitfully suggested.

Then you blam islam for an anonymous killer? What if it was some depraved atheist? Or Jew? Or catholic? I mean I hope you haven't forgotten the Inquisition, nor the Holocaust.  And you still bring up these stupid crimes as evidence?! Should I then reference the christian clergymen that have raped children? Or assigned slavery as a necessary evil? Or do pornography? Or prostitution? And judge your religion according to every vile and depraved crime that happens in every single christian country everyday?  Then why do you judge my religion based on anonymous crimes?  Your argument belittles your brainpower.  Think more, talk less.

Then you sidestep my question...I simply ask you to view a video; I viewed the one u sent me of the convert- and it was simply riddled with remarkably insane opinions and conjectures.  The man said that when he found out that Jesus said he was God and the christians were treating him so nicely, he converted to christianity.  Well some christian should tap him on the shoulder and say: 'dude...ummm, about the Jesus is God thing, well he never said that, and ummm, we're still working on other interpretations so we can get there...'.  As for the treating him nicely- well only an ignoramus treats someone badly without cause. Then you accuse me of being nice only as a facade of trickery?  And only an ignoramus blames a stereotypes a religion because of random and unrelated crimes.

Then, an idiot asked me to prove that Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was not a murderer, rapist...etc; using the most defamatory and insulting titles.  To that idiot: why should I disprove if you can NEVER prove so yourself!  How can you go to a man you've never met, and tell him: prove to me that you're never killed someone? I refuse to dialogue with someone who's only cause is to distort the truth, to spread confusion, to run behind dark alleys, to mislead others, to lie and continuously defame others without an iota of justification. 

You should have continued reading the few following verses in Surah 8:-
12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allâh and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment.

14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

15. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them.

16. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day - unless it be a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own), - he indeed has drawn upon himself wrath from Allâh. And his abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination!

17. You killed them not, but Allâh killed them. And you (Muhammad ) threw not when you did throw but Allâh threw, that He might test the believers by a fair trial from Him. Verily, Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

18. This (is the fact) and surely, Allâh weakens the deceitful plots of the disbelievers.

19. (O disbelievers) if you ask for a judgement, now has the judgement come unto you and if you cease (to do wrong), it will be better for you, and if you return (to the attack), so shall We return, and your forces will be of no avail to you, however numerous it be, and verily, Allâh is with the believers.

20. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad ) while you are hearing.

21. And be not like those who say: "We have heard," but they hear not.

22. Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allâh are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).

23. Had Allâh known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen, and even if He had made them listen, they would but have turned away, averse (to the truth).

... there's a verse that follows this...and you might want to read it:-

http://noblequran.com/translation/index.html

On the Day of Judgment, you will be asked if the message had not come to you- and you will be unable lie or deny it.  The only ones whom are excluded from confessing would be those that were legitimately/clinically insane.  Peace man, you get no more responses from me if you continue in the fashion of presenting pictures and stories of no pertinence to the discussion.

4
The Quran and Hadith / Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: August 12, 2008, 02:44:21 PM »
For your own sake, I hope that you are mentally challenged. Only an idiot in this day and age would use pictures- of which one can fake a baby uprooting a building.  And you make your case on this!  Then present your proof.

Or do you choose to also ignore in your own bible where Jesus says that he did not bring peace! He brought havoc and distress, do split up families, to pit father against son... But why would I present an argument based on the bible?  The bible was written by men- some parts of it are letters that were composed to be only for the eyes of a recipient. Some of it written by historians, some by men who just liked to write, and some by men who just wanted to lie.

Did you not even look at the videos I sent you in the earlier replies?

Presenting fake images to present a case is already distortion.  I thought you were on a quest for the truth- rather, you only intended to cover the truth.

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The Quran and Hadith / Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: August 11, 2008, 11:27:19 PM »
And then you show pictures of a man beating some others- now which idiot would do so when on camera?  Was it staged? Well u never seem to care about the integrity of your argument.  I never posted the headlines 'Swaggart caught with prostitute' and then blame your religion for it, have I?  Or pictures of gay bishops and clergymen? Or videos of testimonies of the holocaust survivors? Why have I not done so? Well simple, you cannot rationalize a crime.  It is simply a crime.  Neither should you try to sensationalize an issue by providing pictures that sways the heart- yet hold no importance!

Now provide some facts and quit belittling yourself.  Have you examined or studied the videos I sent you?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

Peace man

6
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 11, 2008, 11:17:31 PM »
Interesting, I finally took a look at the link you posted- of the 'muslim' who converted to christianity.  The reason I do not pay attention to christian teachings is because each of them rarely presents anything as evidence, and when they provide something, it is not even substantial, and any cross-examination of their evidence would show it to be contradictory to the case they are making.  The man said that he came to christianity under many reasons, one of them is because Jesus claimed divinity.  Is he a christian scholar?  Someone ought to tell him that they can never show a single quote of Jesus making such a statement.  Everything they would provide as evidence would be entirely out of context, and completely unsubstantiated.

So I already knew it was a waste of time.  Man, if you want to preach a religion surrounding a man, you must show direct quote that the man makes claims to x,y and z.  If you cannot, then the theory you are trying to present are simply your own doing.  So if you want to go with John 1:1...even though many christian scholars threw this verse out as a fabrication, there is a link :   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

This link directly examines that verse in its greek text, and then show its translation, and how it is used as a convenient argument instead of a substantial one.  Besides, you might want to take a look at Exodus 7:1, (God told Moses that he would make him a God unto pharoah)- could it be then said that God wanted pharoah to worship Moses?  And then ask why didn't the Jews worship Moses, and then, since it is in your own bible, ask yourself why don't you worship Moses too.  But the christian pick and choose verses of convenience to prove a point in which the very verses chosen are either fabricated or taken out of context.

Learn about Islam... I know you might not like to pray 5 times a day- (even though u said u were instructed to pray without ceasing), you might not like restraining yourself, you might not like the resrtrictions on simply expressing vile opinions.  You might not like many things in Islam.  But there is a verse in the Qur'an that says '...and even if you may not like it, it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you.'  And I am sure there are mothers who tells this to their children when feeding them veggies too.  Learn the truth and stop making excuses based on the actions of others.  I can't say- I am not going to school because there is a lot of promiscuity. I should not deny food because there are so many obese people.  I should not dislike a race because a person brushed me the wrong way; nor should I blame a religion because someone killed someone.  Question is, will you do what is right, or will you do what you like?

7
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 10, 2008, 06:37:58 PM »
Well, to support your theory of 'false prophet' you must provide evidence.  Can you go to a judge say: this teacher is a murderous man! Look at what his students have done! Then you have to show the judge where the teacher instructed the students to do such crimes.  But you can never do so truthfully.

Then you go on to propose that Jesus is 'fully man and fully divine'- the chalcedonian position.  Now what must be noted is that those opposed this theory were excommunicated- such as the Arians.  Read the history of the Arians- they believed that Jesus was mere human.  The rest of 'bodies of theology' would not accept this.  Then your bible goes on to say:

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised[/color][/b]

- NIV, ...the KJV is even harsher and more descriptive:
KJV Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever."

What have the subsequent christian done? They claim God became man, ate, defecated, prayed, walked, made friends, was taught by other men, killed, ran away from men.... and other such blasphemies as the verses above depicts.

Then, in supplement of these, I have found three very short videos that present very concise, very straightforward lessons. Feel free to take a look, judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP9pl1558pc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POaxlkSC3NQ

- If you wish to object, please use evidence that does not rely on emotion as 'evidence' or 'crimes' committed by others in the name of religion (as I have never accused christianity of Hitler's holocaust).  Present text, and present evidence- I tend to stay away from those who 'sensationalize' an issue, making it appeal to a person's feeling but of utter incomprehensibility: for example the gang leader says to the other member: 'rep yo hood'...and this is enough for them to pick up a gun and kill someone simply because they don't like the colour of their church.

Seek the truth man, not your own predispositions.

8
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 08, 2008, 02:07:37 AM »
Pete, you speak like a politician.  Each of your answers contradict other answers you have given to other questions.  So your answers- they are contradictory...

'Jesus and God are co-existent. He is part of God.'

then you say : 'How can did Jesus come into existence, who was his Father?'

Co-exist? I beg you to reconsider and rewrite that.  It is not that I wish to defile or disgrace you, if such was my intent, certainly my language would have been much harsher, to the tune of 'murdering, raping, pillaging, deceptive...'.  But we are seeking truth here, not lambastion.

Then you said:
'You see two entities. I see one. It is God's own spirit: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.'

Actually, they are two different entities.  But then again you go on to claim that I said something which I denied that I said...twice!  How then can you understand words from a man long gone centuries, who does not repond to your allegations?  Yes, I said God is one, Jesus is a created soul, I have a created soul, you have a created soul, angels are also created- the millions of them, all human beings- gosh, by now you probably think that I worship everyone and everything.  Your understanding is extremely weak, but your words are strong.  Work on the 'understanding' part; not by presumption, but by intended meaning, context and evidence.

9
It is interesting to see how your answers to different questions directly conflict and contradict your argument for other issues:

You start off quoting: 'The knowledge of the holy spirit is not given unto the natural man...'

- This was your argument because I pointed out John 5:41- 'I do not accept praise from men...'. I quoted this to show you that even though you worship Jesus, he already stated in the very book that you take knowledge from, that he does not and will not accept your worship.  Since you could not provide and will NEVER be able to provide sufficient 'argument' against this, you resorted to 'the knowlege is...not given unto natural men...'.  You then suggested to do away with the other bibles- the ones with which you do not agree- even though you are not a linguistic scholar, you have your mind set on what you want to believe, and some books do that better for you.  You suggested KJV which quietly quoted the verse as 'I do not receive honor from men'... significantly different in interpretation, but you preferred it.  The only fault in it would be that if that was the real quote, then Jesus would be telling a BIG lie, because everyone in his congregation honored him.  So in one version, he denies men's praise (something that is consistent with 'do not call me good, none is good except God, and 'worship God alone, etc etc), or that men do not honor him- which is just a lie.  You chose the lie over the inconvenient truth.

The contradiction in you bringing up such a quote, to refute my understanding, is that you your very self is a natural man- unless you claim yourself to be more than just a man- which would make you either a liar or a crazy person.  So that quote that you deliver also carries with it implications that you cannot understand the bible yourself!- Not the best quote to bring if your testimony comes from your interpretation of the bible.

Next, in prior arguments, you stated that Jesus had existed from the beginning of time, that he is God.  Now you asked :
'If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?'

The bold contradiction here lies with you claiming Jesus existed in the beginning, and then later saying that he was begotten- which means that a 'begetter' would have to be present before Jesus, making it impossible for Jesus to have existed in the beginning and then later being brought into existence after the beginning.  How could he be begotten if he was always present?  Well, now your quote of 'knowledge not being given to natural men' begins to make more sense- if you apply that quote to yourself.

Next: The question: 'If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?' brings to issues many things:
A- Your bible states that God is also the Father of Adam, which would make a square contradiction with 'only begotten son'.

B- Adam had no natural fathers either- so then your argument for Jesus' 'miraculous birth' would seem small when compared to Adam having neither mother nor father!

C- Just as miraculous as Adam, Eve herself had neither father nor mother! So there are already two human beings with a far more complex and miraculous existence than Jesus'.  I myself believe in Jesus' miraculous birth, but I do not make a big deal of it because God does far greater things than these!

D-  The Angels, even Satan, has no parents! How than do you consider these creation? Aren't the Angels Heavenly creatures? But Jesus was an Earthly creature.  Does that make God beget all of these creations?  No! He Creates at Will, and when He Decrees a matter, He simply Say to it 'Be' and it is!

E- Your bible claims Jesus said : 'call no man on earth your father', but he goes on to say that people that go into the kingdom of heaven will be his 'mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters'.  I am sure that you would not take this statement literally- as all of them giving birth to him, or being his kin- why? Well because God Has no partners, nor is there anything like Him, and He is Free of all Creation.

You venture on to admit:
'I agree I put it inadequately.
Should have said something more like God caused Jesus to become manifest in the flesh, revealing His purpose to save mankind. God and Jesus are one'


There is ONE single verse in the bible that states 'I and the Father are One'.  But you have misused it squanderingly.  Because, not too much after that verse, there is also verses that declare:
'The Father is Greater than me (Jesus)', and 'You have never seen God'...and 'pray to God who is Unseen...'
and
'I am in the Father, and you are in me, and I am in you, and we will all be one'
- but anyone with sense knows that they can never become God, nor can they ever be one with God- except in message of worship. This statement can never be construed as literal, as I am SURE you will agree- because it suits your argument of convenience.  I only wish that you would be more inclined to the truth than to interpretation and opinions.


and
'how can the messenger be greater than the one who sent him...?'
which goes hand in hand with
'I was sent to (do so and so)', and 'I only do what I was sent to do' and

In another argument you seemed to have pointed out an important fact: that we should only say about God those things which He Says about Himself'  We cannot define God.  We cannot say things about God that He does not Say about Himself, as this could amount to blasphemy.  And then you stuffed your foot in your mouth- why, I don't know.  But I beg you to show me in the bible, or elsewhere, references where God told man that He and Jesus are the same, or are one, or are equal.  Or that God dies on the cross. or anything Jesus is his 'Begotten Son'.

Rather, Paul himself testify to these matters, coming in the name of Jesus.  If Moses was a true Prophet- coming in the name of God, and declaring to worship Only God.  And Abraham, and John the Baptist, and Jonah, and Zakariya, and Jesus, and Muhammad...and Paul comes in the name of Jesus and declares that Jesus is god incarnate, and such matters- there is a great err in this trend of prophethood- thus Paul's work would and should be looked at with much more skepticism.  Jesus said he did not come to change the Law of the Prophets- Worship God alone.  Paul did change that.

Then you say that ' muslims are evil because we deny the crucifixion and lineage of Jesus'.  Your own bible states the lineage of Jesus as David- and you find fault with the muslims? What next, you will rewrite the bible and remove everything from it that does not agree with your assumptions, and change the words to suit your beliefs?  You said that Jesus mission was to die on the cross for everyone's sin.  But it is not surprising that in your own bible:

John 18:14It was Caiaphas who had advised the Jews that it would be expedient that one man should die for the people[/u].[/b]

- Who wrote the bible? The Jews.  Now it was advised to them that one man die for the sins of all men.  Some other versions of the bible are not so generous.  Also notable was that Caiaphas was one of the High priests who plotted Jesus' crucifixion.  So... your 'blood for sins' theory is only backed up by a devious man who plotted to kill the man you call god.  Yet you pay a blind eye to these inconvenient truths.

I presented you with multiple proofs, and your objection to my religion is that we deny the crucifixion, and that we deny Jesus as 'literal son of God'.  Both those things are neither in your bible.  Perhaps you should deny christianity also.  You also don't like the 'pillaging, murdering...religion'.  Because even your Jesus said that he came to wreak havoc.  So I am SURE that the violence is not your objection, but a devoid excuse.  But ask of any human being that have met a muslim- they are the kindest of people.  Not just any 'arab' because I will not point to GW Bush, and since he is a christian, blame your religion for his actions. 

10
spewing with ignorance...you speak a lot, but extremely few words of wisdom.

First you say that Jesus is God.  Then you asked who caused jesus to exist (implying that God did).  So God caused Jesus to exist? And Jesus is God? And God begat Jesus? And Jesus is still God?  How can the begotten and the begetter be the same?- Only the insane can propose such a theory!

Then you go on to give the dictionary meaning of 'begat'.  You say that it means to father or sire.  Now this is ALWAYS what the christians have proposed as the meaning of the word 'begotten'- implying that God has a son in the literal sense of the word.

Is there ANY case in the bible in which the word 'begotten' is ascribed other than insinuating an offspring?  Is there "God Begat the world"? Or God begat Angels? Or God Begat all of mankind?  So your argument is nullified.  The arabic word that is translated to the english 'begotten' is only used to refute the christian application of that specific word which, again, is used to blaspheme that God has a son.  Case closed.

11
The Quran and Hadith / Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: August 05, 2008, 11:58:49 PM »
Okay, if you insist that your bible is 'free of sin'...

Jesus said: I did not come to overrule the Laws of the Prophets' i.e Moses, Jonah..those that preceeded him- thus legalizing 'an eye for an eye'.  But he did express that it is better to 'turn the other cheek'- forgive.

But wait! Jesus also allegedly said:
Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword'.


Now if this came from a man of God, what would you expect from mere ignorant folks?

And if this is not enough for you: Read Luke 12:49-53
 49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Well, that is just humbling you a bit.  Perhaps you ignored these matters in your book, or perhaps you did not want me to find it.  Anyway, I understand that some things are far worse than death.  Oppressing someone is worse than killing.  Deceiving someone for their whole life is worse than killing him/her.  Torturing someone is worse than killing him/her.  That said, I do not find fault with your religion in the epics of the Inquisition.  I do not blame christianity for Hitler.  I do not blame the christians for all the crime and corruption in christian countries- (about 80% of countries). Not at all, men will sin, but a religion is not to blame for it.  Similarly, you cannot blame Islam because people claiming to be muslims 'commit suicide bombings' or kill or commit other heinous actions.  Those things are strictly forbidden in Islam.

You then said:

"Regarding prostituting those that have been turned into sex slaves that were captured through imperialistic conquest:

Sura 24:33...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But IF anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

So WHEN they DON'T desire chastity, pimp 'em out and make some cash!

And even IF YOU COMPEL THEM into prostitution, it's forgiven.
That's what I call accommodating!"


You profuse with ignorance! The forgiveness is for the women that are forced to do an evil act! Not for the men that force them to do so!  Prostitution is a sin in Islam, and because if a woman is forced into sinning, then it would be forgiven of her, not her oppressor!

Regarding beating women- the Qur'an is explained to men by the Prophet Muhammad.  For example: when is is instructed to knock on doors before entering, Muhammad (SAW) explained that this instruction is only to guard the eyes.  Only the eyes. And almost every single verse is explained even though most are quite self-explanatory.  In the verse you stated about beating women, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explained that this 'beating' is done with only a single finger, or with the 'miswak' which is a tiny stick the arabs used to clean their teeth- it is smaller than the pinky finger!  He explained that this should not be done to harm nor bruise her.  Now if someone claims otherwise it is only from ignorance!

If it is games of deception that you are interested in, I hold no interest.  If it is accusation based on the misdeeds of other men, I am no judge and want no part of that.  If you are interested in discussing the truth, then I would love that, and would engage.  Let's keep this talk surrounding the real issues instead of who killed who; because on judgment day, I won't be questioned about what anyone else did.  I will be questioned about what I did with what I had.  Each is accountable for themselves.  And the only ones not accountable are those not yet of puberty, those who acted only under coercion or compulsion, and those who were not mentally discerning.

12
The Quran and Hadith / Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: August 05, 2008, 11:27:25 AM »
Well then has not Allah Kept His Word about preserving the Qur'an?  No matter what sect of muslims, the words remain completely the same!

As regarding the different versions: well, when there is something sacred at hand, and you know the exact matter, and someone- out of only good will- propagates the matter; but the only thing is that what he propagates is not true.  Would you stand by and watch him propagate the wrong message simply because he does not know the correct thing? Or would you correct him?

You see, I have read from the king James version- by the way, have you noticed who's version it is?  I did not know that God gave 'King James' authority to rewrite and collect 'god's words'- I wonder why king James doesn't have his own foreword too.  Anyway, I have read from the KJV, and from different versions- and they all render a different story!

I quoted you an example already:
NIV says: 'Of that Hour no man knows, not the Son, not the Angels in Heaven, Only the Father'
KJV says: 'Of that Hour no man knows, no, not the Angels in Heaven, Only the Father'

As you can notice 'not the son' does not appear in the KJV- I mean, it is only a translation, so some words have to have been omitted.

Some years ago, I read a couple other versions too, in which I had pointed out to someone else that one version said:

"Good teacher, what must I do......'Why do you call me Good? But to tell you the truth, keep the commandments"

another version had:
"Good teacher, what must I do......'Why do you call me Good? None is Good except God; but to tell you the truth the only way to eternal life is to keep the commandments"

when I was younger, there was another version that said: 'Do not call me good, none is Good except God...'

And there went the evolution. To deny that there are serious differences in portrayal in different versions of the Bible is simply being blind.  Now you said to trash the other bibles, you use the KJV- who authorized the KJV? Did Jesus somewhere in the Bible said that he will send KJ to collect writings including the one from the writer who said that he decided to write because 'It seemed good to me also', and that christians must follow that version?

But you cannot say this about the Qur'an.  The arabic remains the arabic, and it is a language not very difficult to learn.  The words remain the same- and everyone speaks it in the same way, but perhaps different rhythm.  So if I hear my brother recite it wrongly, I can correct him, and vice versa. Again, Shiite, Sunni, Salafi, Wahhabi, Tablighi... although they may have religious differences, they recite the exact same words from the qur'an.  Catholics have 73 books, Protestants have 66, You have your own... that is why your religion is unique.  Each and every christian has their own interpretation.

Now those are facts.  The rest of 'plundering, pillaging, raping, murdering....' and other derogatory words you used that simply pointed out the actions of the man, not the creed or the doctrine, simply holds no weight.  Catholicism cannot be debunked because some priests rape little boys!  Men will sin, no matter how high their rank is.  So, if there is some other matter in Islam, besides- the fact that the qur'an discredits a crucifixion, or the theory of a 'begotten son' then feel free to speak on it.  If you want to judge the actions of men, then feel free to do so also, just that I will not pay attention to those, nor try to give explanations for them.

13
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 05, 2008, 12:47:34 AM »
You quoted:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

And then you went on to accuse me of believing in two of the three Gods!  Then you say that christians are more monotheistic!  You see, I fully explained to you that the spirit of Jesus was created!  Nothing about God is Created! God is!  So how does believing in this spirit makes me polytheistic? You go on to stipulate that believing that God created uniquely a spirit for Jesus is a form of polytheism!  Man, that verse directly shadows your display.  Seeing explicitly that I told you that Jesus spirit was created, and that I believe Jesus to be no more than a prophet like Muhammad, and Moses, and Abraham...you still go on to accuse me of worshipping him- despite the fact that every muslim will tell you that we do not!?

No wonder you are so lost in the bible.  I simply told you Jesus is a man who's spirit was created- and that I don't worship him. Then you summarise by saying that I do worship him.  Man, I am ALIVE telling you that I do not, you still contradict me! Can you imagine what you would do after I am dead?!

14
The Quran and Hadith / Re: 4 - TEXTUAL HISTORY OF THE KORAN ~ M. Ali
« on: August 04, 2008, 02:26:26 AM »
Ahhh, historians- what do they know other than what is perceived?  This is exactly why the christians now say that Jesus was crucified.
I attend a small Masjid, and several of my brothers know the Qur'an by heart (called 'Haafez')- front to back.  So even if one knows it, he can teach it to a nation- there is not a single other book in the world that is memorized as often as the Qur'an. And this is exactly how God Kept his Word to the Muslims, that He would preserve the Qur'an.

Note that Qur'an as written in the english is only a translation- it is not the actual word of God, since the original Qur'an was done in Arabic, and that it is near impossible to convey all the intended meanings from arabic to english- hence the reason why many Muslims aspire to learn the arabic language.

Another beauty of this uniformed religious language, is that any Muslim, english, swede, dutch, polish, indian, american, asian- no matter what part of the world they are- once the Muslim makes the call to prayer, EVERY single other muslim will recognize it- and every single muslim could learn Qur'an- just so that people don't 'manipulate' and change the words like what has been done to the Bible.  As a muslim in america, I can go to the most distant and isolated area, and once there is another muslim there praying, I will recognize that.  Can you say the same thing about christianity?

15
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 04, 2008, 02:14:57 AM »
I had mentioned that the christianity asserts that 'puny men killed God'- something which even the tiniest or greatest wealth of intellect cannot fathom.  To this you quoted:

"The bible includes metaphorical language, figurative language in dreams and visions, parables and such. Much of it requires understanding through the historical context in which it is written. Much of it confounds a natural man such as yourself:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."


Then by your own evidence, you yourself- who is a natural man- cannot and have 'receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God'.  By your own testimony, you have disqualified your argument and your authority to make an argument in these matters!  And if you suggest that you are, then you have breached and discarded your own evidence.  Wish to continue?

Bearing these in mind, it is important to note the following:
Abraham testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Moses testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Jonah testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Jesus testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Paul testified that the Word was with God, and the word was God, and the Word became God, and that Jesus sent him.
Muhammad testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.

Now you are free to make your case, but I can provide evidence from your bible and my Qur'an for these.  Make sure that you can provide evidence for your case- or else it becomes an argument of opinion...and opinions are not facts.

16
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 04, 2008, 02:03:21 AM »
You stated:
You won't admit it but you are already a polytheist.
You believe in God and God's Spirit. Why do you call Jesus "Ruhullah"?
By the same measure you apply to Christians then, you are polytheist, believing in 2 Gods
You obviously have no knowledge of Islam.  Ruh-ullah simply means a spirit created by Allah.  Keyword:created.

Next, we never have assumed or given worship to anyone except Allah.  Polytheists direct worship to others or associate partners with God. All Muslims testify as their initial testimony: That there is NONE worthy of worship except Allah, Who has no partners...

And how could you say that I believe in two gods when I clearly told you that I only believe in ONE.  Not One as three, or three in one, or one who is three!  Just ONE God- No partners, no intermediates, no children who inherit praise, Just ONE God.

17
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 04, 2008, 01:49:49 AM »
Lets' do this one at time

Here is the Quote:
Matthew15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."-who are the lost sheep? The Jews.

And:
Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
-- Who are the Gentiles- me, you, pretty much anyone not from the 'house of Israel'.

Matthew 13:10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?” 11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

-Reinforcing the idea that he came to just a few.

In Islam, there is hadith narrated from the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that says that all the prophets before him were sent to just their own people.
Moses was sent to the Israelites- was this not true? Jonah was sent to his own people when he tried to flee- was this not true?  Abraham was sent to his own people- was this not true? Jesus was sent to the 'lost sheep of Israel'- did he not say so himself?  And that Muhammad, the last prophet was sent to all mankind after- so his message was the last and final.

- You mentioned that Muhammad never read the scriptures so he didn't know the things about Jesus as u mentioned.  Then how did he know that all the other prophets, as your own bible testify to this, was sent only to their own people?  Well, true, Muhammad was illiterate- could not read nor write- but he knew a whole lot about Jesus.  Amazingly, many of the details he knew- "Jesus said to worship one God"- as mentioned in the Qur'an, and in the Bible.  Jesus was born of a miraculous birth- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus was the Messiah- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus did miracles by the Power of God- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus worshipped God, fasted, ate, and was chaste- as was mentioned in the qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus was a prophet/was sent/was a messenger- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Strikingly Muhammad knew a whole lot about Jesus for never reading the Bible!

18
Islam - General / Re: Islam- The Truth
« on: August 02, 2008, 11:23:51 PM »
Well this may be a complex topic for you.  You see the thing is, even the least educated of Muslims can easily overturn christianity, because the concepts taught in christianity and the concepts in the bible often contradict severely:

- Jesus said 'I was only sent to the Jews' and also advised his disciples to only preach to the Jews. So how christianity came about can only be a bewilderment, as there was no such 'christian' in the lifetime of Jesus.

- In the Old Testament, God constantly Profess His Reign and Might, but some parts of the Old testament says that men killed God.  Now even the simplest of minds would wonder how a mouse could kill a lion.  Now God, whose extent of Power we cannot even fathom, was likened to a man? Killed by extremely puny mortals?

- Christians accomodate for this grossly illogical fact by asserting that 'Jesus came to die for our sins'.  Then it doesn't take long to read in the bible that Jesus prayed and wept all night, asking God to 'pass this cup from me'.  Now why would one who understands that his purpose will eventually involve death, be worried and weeping about it, even when he knows that this state of death would last less than three days? And each christian has his own explanation/ opinion about it.  God cries about fate? Not even a baby thinks so.

- The discrepancies only become greater: Jesus says 'I and the Father are one"... followed by "The Father is Greater than me".  Which would make the first statement seem like a metaphor, as Jesus said he spoke in parables, and the latter declaration at face value.  This is substantiated by jesus own statements: 'I can of my own do nothing', 'I can only do as my Father tells me to do', 'Of that hour no man knows', 'the people took him as a prophet', Jesus was humble, prayed, was tempted by the devil- as the bible declares that God cannot be tempted by the devil.

- The word 'TRINITY' has NEVER occurred in the bible, nor did Jesus ever even mentioned this word not concept in his entire life!

- Christians reconcile the trinity by saying that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptise in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  But even baptism is an act of worship!  What did Jesus say about worship?  'You shall worship ONLY God'.  So in these two statements lies another great contradiction.

- Christians say that Jesus was perfect human, and perfect God both at the same time.  Then why did he say he did not know the Hour? If he was God while he was human? Or was it that he created a portal in himself through which one half could not communicate witht the other.  but this concept is not even plausible in sci-fi.

The list of gross inconsistencies, discrepancies, and contradictions keeps building- and the christian tries to explain away each of them.  All the while, each has their own explanation, and none of their explanations can be traced back to their authority- the bible.

19
Islam - General / Islam- The Truth
« on: August 01, 2008, 08:28:17 PM »
What is Islam:
There are 5 fundamental Principles (Pillars) of Islam:
1- To Testify: Laa illaaha ill-Allaah wa anna Muhammad-ar-Rasool Allah: This means that NONE has the right to be worshipped except God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

2- Salaat: The five daily obligatory prayers

3- To pay Zakaat (charity)

4- To perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to Mecca in Saudi Arabia at least once in the lifetime if one has the means/health/finances/ability to do so.

5- Saum (Fasting) for the Month of Ramadan- except for menstruating women, or suckling mothers, or health or traveling issues.

There are other incumbent duties, but these are the pillars.

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