Islam- The Truth

[Summadat]

What is Islam:
There are 5 fundamental Principles (Pillars) of Islam:
1- To Testify: Laa illaaha ill-Allaah wa anna Muhammad-ar-Rasool Allah: This means that NONE has the right to be worshipped except God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

2- Salaat: The five daily obligatory prayers

3- To pay Zakaat (charity)

4- To perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to Mecca in Saudi Arabia at least once in the lifetime if one has the means/health/finances/ability to do so.

5- Saum (Fasting) for the Month of Ramadan- except for menstruating women, or suckling mothers, or health or traveling issues.

There are other incumbent duties, but these are the pillars.

[Pete]

Hi Sum, thank you for logging in an welcome to the forum!
Shall I remove the redundant thread that does not have the poll?

What is Islam:
There are 5 fundamental Principles (Pillars) of Islam:
1- To Testify: Laa illaaha ill-Allaah wa anna Muhammad-ar-Rasool Allah: This means that NONE has the right to be worshipped except God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

Christians agree there is ONE God:

Mark 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  32  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

God sent His Son into the world to save the world from our sins. New Testament or Old, there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

That's what Jesus Christ and the new covenant that was extended to Gentiles like you and I is about Sum:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Without remission of our sins we would die with them.

2- Salaat: The five daily obligatory prayers

Christians are to:
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
This is a good way to describe our relationship with God through the Holy Ghost (the Comforter, Spirit of God (same Spirit). He is ever present with us and we communicate with Him constantly.
 
Correct me if I am wrong but don't you say Praise be to Allah thirty-three times; God forgive me thirty-three times; Allah is great thirty-three times; and then, if you choose, you may also say Gratitude to Allah?
A total of 495 repetitions of just those first three prayers - every day?

Here is the bible on the subject:
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

And yes, Catholics like Muslims do engage in repetitive prayer.
They also adorn their churches with likenesses of things that are in Heaven.
Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

They also claim to not worship Mary, but the evidence suggests otherwise: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=16.0

3- To pay Zakaat (charity)

While some pastors like to talk of "tithing", interestingly it is one of the only parts of Old Testament law that they insist their flock follow! But the evidence is that even in the Old Testament it was not law, but rather a reaction to an event.

Little matter. Christians are led by the Holy Ghost in matters of charity. You would likely find considerably in excess of 10% of income. Though the average in the institutional "church" is likely much lower than that.

4- To perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to Mecca in Saudi Arabia at least once in the lifetime if one has the means/health/finances/ability to do so.

Traveling to a black stone, or a specific place strikes me as idolatry. I know Muslims march around and around the stone, and some like to rub on it. I know you don't consider it idolatry, but neither do the Catholics consider their statues idolatry, or the Orthodox their "icons" idolatry. Catholics also pilgrimage to places that they consider holier than others.
Many Protestants like to go to the holy land, but that is a tourist type destination and visitation of the places where Jesus walked.

My God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.
My God is also IN me, through the Holy Ghost. I am the temple of the Spirit of God:
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Christians joined together are the temple of God:
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
The body of Christ.

5- Saum (Fasting) for the Month of Ramadan- except for menstruating women, or suckling mothers, or health or traveling issues.

I am negligent in my fasting, but Christian fasting is around the clock. Sometimes for days. My sister fasted on water only for 30 days.
It's my understanding that Islamic "fasting" consists of eating before the sun comes up not eating all day and then eating after the sun goes down.
This pretty much describes my daily eating habits when I was working construction as I couldn't work as hard in the afternoon if I ate lunch.

There are other incumbent duties, but these are the pillars.

There are insurmountable differences that make Islam THE OPPOSITE of Christianity.
What other religion is founded specifically as a direct anti-another-religion, religion?

Almost 120 verses declare Jesus the Son of God. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In God's own words:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Quran:
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!


In Jesus words:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

That verse is exactlly the opposite of the testimony of all of the prophets of the New Testament. Jesus birth, life, crucifixion and resurrection is THE SUBJECT of the New Testament AND the Old Testament promise of His coming.

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

[Pete]

Sum, when I had thought you were coming before I copy and pasted a considerable amount of a prior conversation. I can keep it up for some references, or remove it and start here with a clean slate. Either way is fine with me. I am at your service. The thread is here: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=95.0
I can remove that thread and this post if you like.

[Summadat]

Well this may be a complex topic for you.  You see the thing is, even the least educated of Muslims can easily overturn christianity, because the concepts taught in christianity and the concepts in the bible often contradict severely:

- Jesus said 'I was only sent to the Jews' and also advised his disciples to only preach to the Jews. So how christianity came about can only be a bewilderment, as there was no such 'christian' in the lifetime of Jesus.

- In the Old Testament, God constantly Profess His Reign and Might, but some parts of the Old testament says that men killed God.  Now even the simplest of minds would wonder how a mouse could kill a lion.  Now God, whose extent of Power we cannot even fathom, was likened to a man? Killed by extremely puny mortals?

- Christians accomodate for this grossly illogical fact by asserting that 'Jesus came to die for our sins'.  Then it doesn't take long to read in the bible that Jesus prayed and wept all night, asking God to 'pass this cup from me'.  Now why would one who understands that his purpose will eventually involve death, be worried and weeping about it, even when he knows that this state of death would last less than three days? And each christian has his own explanation/ opinion about it.  God cries about fate? Not even a baby thinks so.

- The discrepancies only become greater: Jesus says 'I and the Father are one"... followed by "The Father is Greater than me".  Which would make the first statement seem like a metaphor, as Jesus said he spoke in parables, and the latter declaration at face value.  This is substantiated by jesus own statements: 'I can of my own do nothing', 'I can only do as my Father tells me to do', 'Of that hour no man knows', 'the people took him as a prophet', Jesus was humble, prayed, was tempted by the devil- as the bible declares that God cannot be tempted by the devil.

- The word 'TRINITY' has NEVER occurred in the bible, nor did Jesus ever even mentioned this word not concept in his entire life!

- Christians reconcile the trinity by saying that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptise in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  But even baptism is an act of worship!  What did Jesus say about worship?  'You shall worship ONLY God'.  So in these two statements lies another great contradiction.

- Christians say that Jesus was perfect human, and perfect God both at the same time.  Then why did he say he did not know the Hour? If he was God while he was human? Or was it that he created a portal in himself through which one half could not communicate witht the other.  but this concept is not even plausible in sci-fi.

The list of gross inconsistencies, discrepancies, and contradictions keeps building- and the christian tries to explain away each of them.  All the while, each has their own explanation, and none of their explanations can be traced back to their authority- the bible.

[Peter]

Well this may be a complex topic for you.  You see the thing is, even the least educated of Muslims can easily overturn christianity, because the concepts taught in christianity and the concepts in the bible often contradict severely:

- Jesus said 'I was only sent to the Jews' and also advised his disciples to only preach to the Jews. So how christianity came about can only be a bewilderment, as there was no such 'christian' in the lifetime of Jesus.

You are likely brainwashed by deceivers engaged in taqiyyah like Ahmed Deedat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9qHIbnrws when it comes to what you know about the bible. Please quote that portion of scripture to which you refer. If you enter your quoted into the search box for the King James Version you will find your quote does not exist: http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Christianity came about by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. That is THE SUBJECT of the New Testament and Jesus life on earth. The new covenant that we were given: 
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You can study the above in context here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/

- In the Old Testament, God constantly Profess His Reign and Might, but some parts of the Old testament says that men killed God.  Now even the simplest of minds would wonder how a mouse could kill a lion.  Now God, whose extent of Power we cannot even fathom, was likened to a man? Killed by extremely puny mortals?

It would help if you quoted that to which you refer.
It should be obvious to you, from your own words, that whatever passage it is to which you refer (likely another Ahmed Deedat creation) requires more than the "simplest of minds" to understand.

The bible includes metaphorical language, figurative language in dreams and visions, parables and such. Much of it requires understanding through the historical context in which it is written. Much of it confounds a natural man such as yourself:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

There is a reason Jesus spoke in parables:
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
You cannot expect to fully understand the things of the Spirit of God until you repent and become converted.

More than a few Christians make the mistake of believing that one can read a bible and understand it without a little effort (particularly the Old Testament), the way one might understand a child's storybook.
For apologetics it's good to have a couple of handbooks like Halley's Bible Handbook, on hand.

- Christians accomodate for this grossly illogical fact by asserting that 'Jesus came to die for our sins'.

You sound like Mohammed. It isn't about what Christians SAY. It's about what the Word of God says. Like the over 150 verses that declare Jesus to be the Son of God. Mohammed was deluded into believing it is something that Christians SAY:

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

But you can see that Mohammed was dead wrong about that. It is the testament of the Word of God. If he had only been literate he might have read the bible and understand his folly.

Jesus dying on the Cross and resurrection IS THE SUBJECT of the New Testament. Also Old Testament prophecy. You yourself believe He is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin. Here is some prophecy written hundreds of years before Jesus' crucifixion:

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalms 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Then it doesn't take long to read in the bible that Jesus prayed and wept all night, asking God to 'pass this cup from me'.  Now why would one who understands that his purpose will eventually involve death, be worried and weeping about it, even when he knows that this state of death would last less than three days? And each christian has his own explanation/ opinion about it.  God cries about fate? Not even a baby thinks so.

Jesus was fully man when He was on this earth. He was laboring under the weight of the sin of all mankind past and future, as He had been carrying the burden of our sins long before He was made manifest:

Hebrews 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   2  The same was in the beginning with God.    3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.    4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.    5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.    6  There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.    7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.   8  He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.    9  [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.    10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.    11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.   12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:    13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.    14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the above John the Apostle makes reference to John the Baptist.

- The discrepancies only become greater: Jesus says 'I and the Father are one"... followed by "The Father is Greater than me".

The "one" is in the neuter. They are of one essence. Of one being. Jesus Christ is a manifestation of God, just as the Spirit of God is a manifestation of God.
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Simple answer is God IS greater than Jesus.

But even the Quran teaches that you can't know the nature of God, or His ways. You are trying to understand God in carnal, fleshly, human terms, as if your human mind were capable of doing so.
Is that what the Quran teaches?

Even you believe in the Spirit of Allah. If Allah had not made himself manifest through his spirit, how would you even know he exists?

Which would make the first statement seem like a metaphor, as Jesus said he spoke in parables, and the latter declaration at face value.  This is substantiated by jesus own statements: 'I can of my own do nothing', 'I can only do as my Father tells me to do', 'Of that hour no man knows', 'the people took him as a prophet', Jesus was humble, prayed, was tempted by the devil- as the bible declares that God cannot be tempted by the devil.

That's right. Jesus was fully man while on earth, though He was a perfect, and sinless man.

- The word 'TRINITY' has NEVER occurred in the bible, nor did Jesus ever even mentioned this word not concept in his entire life!

That's right. And I don't care for the term either. Some say 3 persons, which also doesn't occur in the bible and perhaps creates an even bigger barrier for Muslims seeking Jesus Christ.

These DOCTRINES came about in a perhaps feeble effort to try to wrap our human peabrains around the nature of God, and then figure out a way to explain the Godhead, but it likely can't be done.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

And it would seem that the way that was selected may not have been the best way to communicate with Muslims. In the comment section of the video on the following link is an interesting debate between two Christians on the subject of the "trinity". Click Here The person pushing the doctrinal term trinity doesn't seem to have faired too well.

I discuss the subject of the "trinity" on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZvFvObWF7I
And on this forum thread: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=110.0

The term trinity was likely brought into the church by Constantine, though some argue against it. Constantine was responsible for a considerable amount of pagan concepts being brought into what eventually came to be called the "church".

- Christians reconcile the trinity by saying that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptise in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  But even baptism is an act of worship!  What did Jesus say about worship?  'You shall worship ONLY God'.  So in these two statements lies another great contradiction.

No. Baptism is an act of obedience by following what we are commanded to do through God's Word.

You won't admit it but you are already a polytheist.
You believe in God and God's Spirit. Why do you call Jesus "Ruhullah"?
By the same measure you apply to Christians then, you are polytheist, believing in 2 Gods.

- Christians say that Jesus was perfect human, and perfect God both at the same time.  Then why did he say he did not know the Hour?

Because He did not know the day or the hour.

If he was God while he was human? Or was it that he created a portal in himself through which one half could not communicate witht the other.  but this concept is not even plausible in sci-fi.

It is the nature of God as He declared it in His Word. That we don't fully understand the "whys" or the "hows" should not surprise us. If you repent, you may be able to ask Him when you get there.

The list of gross inconsistencies, discrepancies, and contradictions keeps building- and the christian tries to explain away each of them.  All the while, each has their own explanation, and none of their explanations can be traced back to their authority- the bible.

A list of inconsistencies only builds in those who put their effort into MISunderstanding.
As sad as it is, some come as a result of modern bible versions that are based on a corrupt 19th century Greek text that was written by two spiritualists named Westcott and Hort.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

When you are ready to put your effort into understanding rather than MISunderstanding you can find an introduction to the Gospels here:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john

You can study the bible at this link with default King James Version (same version Deedat used): http://www.blueletterbible.org/
For more in depth you can check the Textus Receptus Greek/English interlinear, Strong's definitions at this link (but unfortunately it is New King James by default): http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm


The most important thing for you to understand is that God chose to steadily reveal Himself to mankind in the ways that he did, from mankind's beginnings. The Bible is the record of that revelation that took place over 1600 years through all of the prophets and legions of witnesses.

Does it seem reasonable to you that God would send Mohammed, whose life, and book, describe THE EXACT POLAR OPPOSITE of the bible and the God of the Christians and Jews as a last prophet?
One who engaged in, and whose book describes a god that advances rape, pillage, plunder, prostitution, and bloody imperialistic conquest?

Islam is antichrist. The opposite of being in Christ. It denies the absolute and central subject of the New Testament and the purpose of Jesus Christ on earth.

Mohammed wasn't alone. The bible warned us of such: Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mohammed even came as a ravening wolf, but you can't see it. Here are some others that can't see because of the strong delusion under which they suffer:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults
The 19th century brought us

Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort
Westcott and Hort - wrote corrupt 19th century minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.
United and Oneness Pentecostal Church - several individuals 19th and 20th century

Certainly not limited to the 19th century.

Constantine - Roman Catholicism - 3rd-4th century
Ribera - futurist doctrine creator and seed for Darby's doctrine 16th century
Alcazar - preterist doctrine 17th century
Manuel de Lacunza - middle man between Ribera and Darby 18th century

2Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

It was prophesied:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Islam is antichrist and has the distinction of being the only anti-another-religion religion, the only OPPOSITE of a religion, on earth, besides Satanism.

[Summadat]

Lets' do this one at time

Here is the Quote:
Matthew15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."-who are the lost sheep? The Jews.

And:
Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
-- Who are the Gentiles- me, you, pretty much anyone not from the 'house of Israel'.

Matthew 13:10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?” 11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

-Reinforcing the idea that he came to just a few.

In Islam, there is hadith narrated from the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that says that all the prophets before him were sent to just their own people.
Moses was sent to the Israelites- was this not true? Jonah was sent to his own people when he tried to flee- was this not true?  Abraham was sent to his own people- was this not true? Jesus was sent to the 'lost sheep of Israel'- did he not say so himself?  And that Muhammad, the last prophet was sent to all mankind after- so his message was the last and final.

- You mentioned that Muhammad never read the scriptures so he didn't know the things about Jesus as u mentioned.  Then how did he know that all the other prophets, as your own bible testify to this, was sent only to their own people?  Well, true, Muhammad was illiterate- could not read nor write- but he knew a whole lot about Jesus.  Amazingly, many of the details he knew- "Jesus said to worship one God"- as mentioned in the Qur'an, and in the Bible.  Jesus was born of a miraculous birth- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus was the Messiah- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus did miracles by the Power of God- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus worshipped God, fasted, ate, and was chaste- as was mentioned in the qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus was a prophet/was sent/was a messenger- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Strikingly Muhammad knew a whole lot about Jesus for never reading the Bible!

[Summadat]

You stated:

You won't admit it but you are already a polytheist. You believe in God and God's Spirit. Why do you call Jesus "Ruhullah"? By the same measure you apply to Christians then, you are polytheist, believing in 2 Gods

You obviously have no knowledge of Islam.  Ruh-ullah simply means a spirit created by Allah.  Keyword:created.

Next, we never have assumed or given worship to anyone except Allah.  Polytheists direct worship to others or associate partners with God. All Muslims testify as their initial testimony: That there is NONE worthy of worship except Allah, Who has no partners...

And how could you say that I believe in two gods when I clearly told you that I only believe in ONE.  Not One as three, or three in one, or one who is three!  Just ONE God- No partners, no intermediates, no children who inherit praise, Just ONE God.

[Summadat]

I had mentioned that the christianity asserts that 'puny men killed God'- something which even the tiniest or greatest wealth of intellect cannot fathom.  To this you quoted:

"The bible includes metaphorical language, figurative language in dreams and visions, parables and such. Much of it requires understanding through the historical context in which it is written. Much of it confounds a natural man such as yourself:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."

Then by your own evidence, you yourself- who is a natural man- cannot and have 'receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God'.  By your own testimony, you have disqualified your argument and your authority to make an argument in these matters!  And if you suggest that you are, then you have breached and discarded your own evidence.  Wish to continue?

Bearing these in mind, it is important to note the following:
Abraham testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Moses testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Jonah testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Jesus testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Paul testified that the Word was with God, and the word was God, and the Word became God, and that Jesus sent him.
Muhammad testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.

Now you are free to make your case, but I can provide evidence from your bible and my Qur'an for these.  Make sure that you can provide evidence for your case- or else it becomes an argument of opinion...and opinions are not facts.

[Pete]

Lets' do this one at time

Here is the Quote:
Matthew15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."-who are the lost sheep? The Jews.

And:
Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
-- Who are the Gentiles- me, you, pretty much anyone not from the 'house of Israel'.

That's right. Jesus IS a Jew. He was sent unto His own. To His lost sheep. But His own received Him not. http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john

So: Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I already showed you that salvation is come unto the Gentiles - to everyone - through the new covenant THROUGH THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. That is the purpose of His crucifixion, death and resurrection. THAT IS THE SUBJECT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. Mohammed rewrote history for desert dwelling Arabs by writing THE DIRECT OPPOSITE of the testimony of the Apostles that were witnesses of Jesus crucifixion. As long as you reject this along with your pillaging, plundering, murdering, raping, prostituting, conquering religion, you will share in the false prophet's fate.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Matthew 13:10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?” 11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

-Reinforcing the idea that he came to just a few.

Dump your corrupt bible version. Default KJV here - http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Maybe you are getting it a little bit. He did indeed come for a few - His own. His elect. The remnant.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1.5 billion lost to the false prophet Mohammed in the world today, and for 1400 years of his reprobate murder and mayhem.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Over 150 verses in God's Word declare Jesus to be the Son of God: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

Earlier I explained to you why it is, that God's Word says you cannot understand parables, unless and until you repent and become converted:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

You have demonstrated yourself to be a perfect example.

Let's look at a little context and see if you can get a little better idea of who the "you" are and who the "they" are.

Mat 13:1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

[Pete]

I had mentioned that the christianity asserts that 'puny men killed God'- something which even the tiniest or greatest wealth of intellect cannot fathom.  To this you quoted:

"The bible includes metaphorical language, figurative language in dreams and visions, parables and such. Much of it requires understanding through the historical context in which it is written. Much of it confounds a natural man such as yourself:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."

Then by your own evidence, you yourself- who is a natural man- cannot and have 'receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God'.  By your own testimony, you have disqualified your argument and your authority to make an argument in these matters!  And if you suggest that you are, then you have breached and discarded your own evidence.  Wish to continue?

You have once again aptly demonstrated that you are the natural man that doesn't understand the things of the Spirit of God. Just like you don't have the powers of discernment to understand a parable.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Bearing these in mind, it is important to note the following:
Abraham testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Moses testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Jonah testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Jesus testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.
Paul testified that the Word was with God, and the word was God, and the Word became God, and that Jesus sent him.
Muhammad testified that God is one, and that he was sent by God.

http://www.islamandthetruth.com/index.htm#gospel_of_john

Now you are free to make your case, but I can provide evidence from your bible and my Qur'an for these.  Make sure that you can provide evidence for your case- or else it becomes an argument of opinion...and opinions are not facts.

You don't realize this but you can provide no evidence from the bible because you have proven repeatedly that you can't possibly be expected to have the powers of discernment to read it, much less understand it. You have to first put your effort into understanding, rather than MISunderstanding.

For Muslim read-only participants out there, 95% of the testimonies of X-Muslims came simply as a result of picking up a bible. God's Word is understandable if you approach it with an open heart. Start with the Gospels. Here is an introduction: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john
What you witness here is the fruit of one in the grip of the one of Islam, the OPPOSITE of the God of the bible. Here are X-Muslim testimonies of those that have come to know the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ rather than the murder, rape, and prostitution of the one of Islam: http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp
More: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/christian_testimonies.htm

One need know nothing else about the Quran or Islam except for these two verses, to know that it is the only anti-another-religion - OPPOSITE another religion - religion, besides Satanism:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

The DIRECT OPPOSITE of the record given to us by the God of the bible.

[Pete]

Tell me Sum. Why would you follow a god that advanced 7th century prostituting of sex slaves that were captured and raped as spoils of imperialistic conquest?
Indeed only through outside pressure "officially" ending slavery in Saudi Arabia in 1962. It is certainly still a part of Islam in Africa. Slavery will always remain a part of Islam because it is Quranic. Including through the jizya tax.
Please reply on the appropriate thread: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=68.0

[Pete]

In Islam, there is hadith narrated from the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that says that all the prophets before him were sent to just their own people.
Moses was sent to the Israelites- was this not true? Jonah was sent to his own people when he tried to flee- was this not true?  Abraham was sent to his own people- was this not true? Jesus was sent to the 'lost sheep of Israel'- did he not say so himself?  And that Muhammad, the last prophet was sent to all mankind after- so his message was the last and final.

- You mentioned that Muhammad never read the scriptures so he didn't know the things about Jesus as u mentioned.  Then how did he know that all the other prophets, as your own bible testify to this, was sent only to their own people? 

He was told by others. He also obviously picked up little bits and pieces of Jewish fables when he was growing up because they are also incorporated into the Quran: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam_and_fables.htm

Well, true, Muhammad was illiterate- could not read nor write- but he knew a whole lot about Jesus.  Amazingly, many of the details he knew- "Jesus said to worship one God"- as mentioned in the Qur'an, and in the Bible.  Jesus was born of a miraculous birth- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus was the Messiah- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus did miracles by the Power of God- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus worshipped God, fasted, ate, and was chaste- as was mentioned in the qur'an and the Bible.  Jesus was a prophet/was sent/was a messenger- as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Bible.  Strikingly Muhammad knew a whole lot about Jesus for never reading the Bible!

Mohammed was coached, there is also a lot of Gnosticism in Islam.
But that spirit of antichrist forces you to deny that He is God's Son and denies that He was crucified to save the world from our sins. To deny the New Testament of God's Word.

So tragic that many Muslims even believe that if a homicide bomber blows himself up in a bus load of Jewish school children that he provides propitiation for the sins of 70 of his nearest and dearest friends and relatives (they even throw a party for him), but Muslims can't imagine, even for a moment, that God could have sent His Son for the same purpose for the whole world.

[Pete]

You stated:

You won't admit it but you are already a polytheist. You believe in God and God's Spirit. Why do you call Jesus "Ruhullah"? By the same measure you apply to Christians then, you are polytheist, believing in 2 Gods

You obviously have no knowledge of Islam.  Ruh-ullah simply means a spirit created by Allah.  Keyword:created.

Next, we never have assumed or given worship to anyone except Allah.  Polytheists direct worship to others or associate partners with God. All Muslims testify as their initial testimony: That there is NONE worthy of worship except Allah, Who has no partners...

And how could you say that I believe in two gods when I clearly told you that I only believe in ONE.  Not One as three, or three in one, or one who is three!  Just ONE God- No partners, no intermediates, no children who inherit praise, Just ONE God.

But you just admitted to two of the three Gods that you accuse Christians of. God and His Spirit.

Christians are more monotheistic than that. God's Spirit is a part of God that He made manifest to us. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

One of the ways we can understand the following verse:
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Is our own 3 parts:
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Summadat]

You quoted:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

And then you went on to accuse me of believing in two of the three Gods!  Then you say that christians are more monotheistic!  You see, I fully explained to you that the spirit of Jesus was created!  Nothing about God is Created! God is!  So how does believing in this spirit makes me polytheistic? You go on to stipulate that believing that God created uniquely a spirit for Jesus is a form of polytheism!  Man, that verse directly shadows your display.  Seeing explicitly that I told you that Jesus spirit was created, and that I believe Jesus to be no more than a prophet like Muhammad, and Moses, and Abraham...you still go on to accuse me of worshipping him- despite the fact that every muslim will tell you that we do not!?

No wonder you are so lost in the bible.  I simply told you Jesus is a man who's spirit was created- and that I don't worship him. Then you summarise by saying that I do worship him.  Man, I am ALIVE telling you that I do not, you still contradict me! Can you imagine what you would do after I am dead?!

[Pete]

You quoted:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

And then you went on to accuse me of believing in two of the three Gods!

I did that in order to illustrate that I worship one God. As all Christians do:
Mark 12:29...The Lord our God is one Lord:  ...32 ... for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
You believe THE false prophet that suggested that Christians are polytheist. But you can see that according to God's Word it is a lie to say we are polytheist. If only he could have read the bible he might have gotten straightened out. But then he was illiterate.

Then you say that christians are more monotheistic!  You see, I fully explained to you that the spirit of Jesus was created!

Jesus and God are co-existent. He is part of God.
John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Nothing about God is Created! God is!

That's right. His name is I AM ("Allah" does not mean I AM in Arabic). Exodus 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So how does believing in this spirit makes me polytheistic?

You see two entities. I see one. It is God's own spirit: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You go on to stipulate that believing that God created uniquely a spirit for Jesus is a form of monotheism!  Man, that verse...

Verses are irrelevant to you. You have repeatedly demonstrated your unwillingness to understand, but rather put your effort into MISunderstanding. You will not be able to understand as long as you keep trying to filter the truth of God's Word through the false book of THE false prophet. Mohammed's book IS THE conspicuous OPPOSITE. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=111.0

One must choose. Between the God of love of the bible or the one of Islam that advanced pillage, plunder, rape, prostitution and murder.
Why not start with these verses, but actually try to open your heart and understand: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus.htm

....directly shadows your display.  Seeing explicitly that I told you that Jesus spirit was created, and that I believe Jesus to be no more than a prophet like Muhammad,....

Do you ever stop to really think about what you believe, or have you been so busy chanting it that you didn't have time?
While you believe that Jesus was uniquely created by God, and that he was born of a virgin, you turn right around and reduce Him to the level of a normally conceived human, like Muhammed, who still lies rotting in his grave.

You believe that Jesus was uniquely created unlike any other person who ever walked the face of the earth. You believe that God said "be" and Mary conceived Him, but refuse to admit that he was begotten of God:

beget:
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't beget Jesus, then who caused Jesus to exist in the flesh?
If God wasn't Jesus' father, then who was?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

You believe that the virgin Mary could conceive Jesus simply by God saying "be".
But it would seem you apparently believe that God is not powerful enough to say "be", and in so doing a part of Himself would be sent to walk the earth in the flesh, as a perfect and sinless man, to provide a loving, peaceful and forgiving example for all mankind to follow.
That this same perfect man would become the perfect sacrifice to save all mankind from our sin.

Even though, at least some Muslims, believe that if a Muslim blows himself up in a bus load of Jewish school children that the first drop of his own blood that he spills provides propitiation for the sins of 70 of his nearest and dearest relatives and friends.

Muslims get the concept, but apparently don't believe God to be powerful enough to simply say "be" and send a part of Himself to do the same through His own sacrifice, even though they understand Jesus was conceived of a virgin purely by the will of God.

....and Moses, and Abraham...you still go on to accuse me of worshipping him- despite the fact that every muslim will tell you that we do not!?

You think it is something like when you call Christians polytheists even though our book explicitly shows that we are not. But it's not like that.

I understand what Muslims think they believe from God's Holy Word. The part you don't seem to get is that the one of Islam is the OPPOSITE of the God of the bible. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=111.0

Christians and Jews are submitted to God. Muslims have been deluded into believing they are. You have chosen Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion, of an illiterate desert dweller that advanced all of the reprobate things his book calls for, including prostitution.
The head of that religion made obvious through the fruit of Islam: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

No wonder you are so lost in the bible.  I simply told you Jesus is a man who's spirit was created-...

Jesus is God. They are coexistent.
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus bore the burden of our sins long before He was made manifest:
Hebrews 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

...and that I don't worship him.

That's exactly right.
1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Then you summarise by saying that I do worship him.  Man, I am ALIVE telling you that I do not, you still contradict me! Can you imagine what you would do after I am dead?!

Indeed you do not. You deny the Son of God.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus.htm

What do you think this is all about?

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Who do you suppose THE false prophet is? The tooth fairy, or the one that has incited 1400 years of murder, mayhem and misery, followed by oppression through the absence of freedom? Who is the beast?

[Summadat]

Pete, you speak like a politician.  Each of your answers contradict other answers you have given to other questions.  So your answers- they are contradictory...

'Jesus and God are co-existent. He is part of God.'

then you say : 'How can did Jesus come into existence, who was his Father?'

Co-exist? I beg you to reconsider and rewrite that.  It is not that I wish to defile or disgrace you, if such was my intent, certainly my language would have been much harsher, to the tune of 'murdering, raping, pillaging, deceptive...'.  But we are seeking truth here, not lambastion.

Then you said:
'You see two entities. I see one. It is God's own spirit: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.'

Actually, they are two different entities.  But then again you go on to claim that I said something which I denied that I said...twice!  How then can you understand words from a man long gone centuries, who does not repond to your allegations?  Yes, I said God is one, Jesus is a created soul, I have a created soul, you have a created soul, angels are also created- the millions of them, all human beings- gosh, by now you probably think that I worship everyone and everything.  Your understanding is extremely weak, but your words are strong.  Work on the 'understanding' part; not by presumption, but by intended meaning, context and evidence.

[Pete]

Pete, you speak like a politician.  Each of your answers contradict other answers you have given to other questions.  So your answers- they are contradictory...

'Jesus and God are co-existent. He is part of God.'

then you say : 'How can did Jesus come into existence, who was his Father?'

You refuse to see.
Jesus came into existence ON EARTH, IN THE FLESH. When he was manifest to mankind. Through the virgin Mary.
With Jesus as God's Son and God as His Father.

Though He visited the earth during Old Testament times.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Co-exist? I beg you to reconsider and rewrite that.  It is not that I wish to defile or disgrace you,....

It's not about me. It is the Word of God that you and your false prophet defile and try to disgrace.

.... if such was my intent, certainly my language would have been much harsher, to the tune of 'murdering, raping, pillaging, deceptive...'.

Those are simple matters of historical fact that have defined Mohammedanism since Mohammed plundered his first caravan and ordered the murder of his first elderly poet in their sleep. Even a woman with a baby at her breast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSMnCxPsbM&feature
The opposite of Jesus. That is why you can't describe Jesus ministry the way I can honestly describe Mohammed's.

Those terms describe the Islamic first jihad.
The promise of gain through the theft of the property of others, and women captured as spoils and pressed into sexual slavery, is how Mohammed grew and army. That, of course, in addition to his carnal version of heaven.

  But we are seeking truth here, not lambastion.

If you were seeking truth you would see how preposterously the OPPOSITE Mohammedanism is from God's Word.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

2Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24   Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Then you said:
'You see two entities. I see one. It is God's own spirit: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.'

Actually, they are two different entities.

That's why you are more polytheist than I.
I see God's Spirit as part of God.
You see it as separate. You see two entities.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I see God's own spirit - that part of God - moving upon the face of the waters.
You apparently see a separate entity entirely. Like God and the other God.

You will save yourself confusion, and me extra labor, if you use the quote function in reply.

But then again you go on to claim that I said something which I denied that I said...twice!  How then can you understand words from a man long gone centuries, who does not repond to your allegations?  Yes, I said God is one, Jesus is a created soul, I have a created soul, you have a created soul, angels are also created- the millions of them, all human beings- gosh, by now you probably think that I worship everyone and everything.  Your understanding is extremely weak, but your words are strong.  Work on the 'understanding' part; not by presumption, but by intended meaning, context and evidence.

You have already been shown that your view of Jesus Christ is blasphemy to the God of the bible. Not blasphemy to Mohammed. God gave us a record:

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

False prophets that deny the blood of the Lamb are liars. Those that follow them that deny the blood that bought them are liars.

[Pete]

It is not that I wish to defile or disgrace you, if such was my intent, certainly my language would have been much harsher, to the tune of 'murdering, raping, pillaging, deceptive...'.  But we are seeking truth here, not lambastion.

The labels I apply to Islam and the false prophet and his deeds are truthful, fair, matter of fact, and even whitewashed, in comparison to others who are more blunt.

You can earn $50,000 if you can demonstrate that Mohammed WAS NOT a narcissist, misogynist, rapist, pedophile, lecher, torturer, mass murderer, cult leader, assassin, terrorist, mad man and looter.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

Here are debates of Muslims that have feebly tried to disprove the claims.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm

You can see from the list that those imams that failed were no Islamic lightweights.

[Summadat]

Well, to support your theory of 'false prophet' you must provide evidence.  Can you go to a judge say: this teacher is a murderous man! Look at what his students have done! Then you have to show the judge where the teacher instructed the students to do such crimes.  But you can never do so truthfully.

Then you go on to propose that Jesus is 'fully man and fully divine'- the chalcedonian position.  Now what must be noted is that those opposed this theory were excommunicated- such as the Arians.  Read the history of the Arians- they believed that Jesus was mere human.  The rest of 'bodies of theology' would not accept this.  Then your bible goes on to say:

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised[/color][/b]

- NIV, ...the KJV is even harsher and more descriptive:
KJV Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever."

What have the subsequent christian done? They claim God became man, ate, defecated, prayed, walked, made friends, was taught by other men, killed, ran away from men.... and other such blasphemies as the verses above depicts.

Then, in supplement of these, I have found three very short videos that present very concise, very straightforward lessons. Feel free to take a look, judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP9pl1558pc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POaxlkSC3NQ

- If you wish to object, please use evidence that does not rely on emotion as 'evidence' or 'crimes' committed by others in the name of religion (as I have never accused christianity of Hitler's holocaust).  Present text, and present evidence- I tend to stay away from those who 'sensationalize' an issue, making it appeal to a person's feeling but of utter incomprehensibility: for example the gang leader says to the other member: 'rep yo hood'...and this is enough for them to pick up a gun and kill someone simply because they don't like the colour of their church.

Seek the truth man, not your own predispositions.

[Pete]

Well, to support your theory of 'false prophet' you must provide evidence.  Can you go to a judge say: this teacher is a murderous man!

He started by having poets murdered in their sleep. Murdered folks on caravans that he attacked and plundered. Islam murdered it's way through nearly the whole known world during the first jihad.

Look at what his students have done!

The false prophet's students dutifully follow his example described in the hadith and Quran, as Muslims are directed to do. The peacenicks in the west won't last long once the wahabis and other fundamental Muslims that understand the Quran, are in control. Who do you think is financing Islam around the world?

Then you have to show the judge where the teacher instructed the students to do such crimes.  But you can never do so truthfully.

You act as though we haven't had the extensive exchange that we have. Over a hundred verses in the Quran suggest violence against non-Muslims in the dar el harb. For example:

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Fundamental Muslims understand what to do:
In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church.  The note left behind reads:  "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

Then you go on to propose that Jesus is 'fully man and fully divine'- the chalcedonian position.  Now what must be noted is that those opposed this theory were excommunicated- such as the Arians.  Read the history of the Arians- they believed that Jesus was mere human.

You can see that within the body of your own sentence you state one position as a premise, then argue a different position as though it were the original premise position. Why waste our time like this? Why not take the $50,000 challenge and make some money?

Your confusion will remain as long as you reject Jesus Christ as your blood bought Savior because you cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God.

The rest of 'bodies of theology' would not accept this.  Then your bible goes on to say:

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised[/color][/b]

- NIV, ...the KJV is even harsher and more descriptive:
KJV Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever."

What have the subsequent christian done? They claim God became man,....

You keep confusing "claims" with God's Word. Christians believe God became man because the bible makes this claim: 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Even after Jesus' crucifixion, death, and resurrection He was still flesh:
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Mohammedans reject the Word of God in favor of Mohammedanism.
You should be able to understand by now, that since you can't understand the things of the Spirit of God, the last thing you will be able to wrap your carnal head around is the nature of God and His ways. Particularly since the bible says we can't know them. The passage that you quoted referenced the disobedience of some Jews as detailed throughout the Old Testament.

The most tragic error that you and Islamic sophist illusionists make, is that you believe you can dictate to God what He can and cannot do. But you can't.
God's Word details what He did and did not do. You won't find Him with your head, but with your heart. Your trying to think your way to God only draws you further away from God.
I simply follow the Word of God, with eyes wide open, and understand Him through His Word, and my purpose in Him.

It isn't about what Christians "claim", it is about what the Word of God says, as I have shown repeatedly shown.
That you reject it in favor of the hopelessly confused record  http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0  of rantings of an illiterate, desert dwelling, 7th century false prophet, was prophesied in God's Word too.   It would be laughable, if it weren't so tragic, that someone would follow the DIRECT OPPOSITE of the Word of God.

.... ate, defecated, prayed, walked, made friends, was taught by other men, killed, ran away from men.... and other such blasphemies as the verses above depicts.

Then, in supplement of these, I have found three very short videos that present very concise, very straightforward lessons. Feel free to take a look, judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP9pl1558pc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POaxlkSC3NQ

- If you wish to object, please use evidence that does not rely on emotion as 'evidence' or 'crimes' committed by others in the name of religion (as I have never accused christianity of Hitler's holocaust).

The videos you present are posted by Islamic cowards that screen comments. Islam cannot stand the light of truth.
I tried to respond to the first video since the comments were all pouring accolades on the famous illusionist. I responded:

""Dr." Zakir Naik ran and hid like a little girl from the $50,000 challenge:
faithfreedom . org/debates/ZakirNaikp2 . htm "

I got a "comment pending approval".
Will it be posted? No. For the same reason the bible and Christian literature is banned in Islamic countries. Islam has to hide and cower in the corner from truth.

And we already plowed this ground Sum.
It would be a stupid and backwards lie to blame Christianity for Hitler's holocaust, and only foolish liars, like Deedat, would attempt to do so, as at the 2:21 mark in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WsWtSeudQo

Nazism is the opposite of Christianity.
But it would be perfectly appropriate, and historically accurate, to blame the holocaust in large part on Islam.
Hitler's goals were perfectly parallel with the murderous goals of Islam.
IT IS ISLAM THAT WAS UP TO IT'S EYEBALLS IN GENOCIDE OF JEWS, HAND IN HAND WITH HITLER, THROUGH THE ISLAMIC MUFTI OF JERUSALEM.

The videos presented here ARE HISTORICAL FOOTAGE OF ISLAMIC PARTICIPATION WITH THE NAZIS, not a bunch of wordcrafted foolishness by illusionists like Dr. Zakir Naik, or Ahmed Deedat, that have so deluded the simple minds of their devotees away from truth, with their lies and fabrications.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9qHIbnrws
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NaikCampbellintro.htm

That's why guys like "Dr." Zakir Naik have to run and hide like a bunch of little girls from the $50,000 challenge.
 http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/ZakirNaikp2.htm
He, like yourself, cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God.

Hitler and the Mufti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6OK1Pi3xV8
Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d51poygEXYU
Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini [Hitler's Mufti]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2OzEvyrsw
FREIES ARABIEN (Just as Muslims are still devoted to Hitler today as we see on their signs at rallys. "God bless Hitler" etc. http://lesbeauf-sdansstartsinblogs.hautetfort.com/images/medium_god_bless_hitler.5.jpg )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G71PSF2qCI8&feature=related
History Of The Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th SS Handzar Division
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNzTL4zu5Xg&feature=related

The current day fruit of Islamic hatred of God's people:
Seeds of Hatred
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_xHQ3lX9GE&feature
Indoctrinated 3-year old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&feature
Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West (1 of 10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMLJJEDDDGc
Dispatches - Undercover Mosque (1 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo
Kindergarten Graduation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw&feature

It has always been Islam's goal, and will remain Islam's goal, to murder Jews everywhere they can be found. Ever since they rejected the false prophet Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion.
Besides the obvious historical fruit, here's one reason:

Hadith: Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!

And here's what God's Word says about His people and why Christians love Jews:
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Genesis 12:2  And I will make of thee [Abram] a great nation [Israel], and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:  3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 17:7   And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Present text, and present evidence- I tend to stay away from those who 'sensationalize' an issue,....

Presentation of 1400 years of Islamic bloody conquest and Quranic pillage, plunder, rape, murder, prostitution can hardly be characterized as "sensationalizing" the fruit of the false prophet Mohammed.

For visitors lurking out there that are as tragically uninformed as Sumadat, you can learn more about Islam and it's history through the Quran and the hadith here: http://www.youtube.com/user/AhmadsQuran3

.... making it appeal to a person's feeling but of utter incomprehensibility: for example the gang leader says to the other member: 'rep yo hood'...and this is enough for them to pick up a gun and kill someone simply because they don't like the colour of their church.

Seek the truth man, not your own predispositions.

Truth: Over 11,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11.
Theft, plunder, murder of the Islamic conquest of nearly the whole known world.
Why not get your head out of the sand?
Why not read your Quran and hadith?
Better yet, why not go to the cradle of your religion and understand what those that truly understand Islam believe.
You know what? I believe you have. I believe you are one of those walking, talking taqiyyah machines of the powers of darkness.

But anyone can follow our conversation and see that you personally are powerless against God's Word.
At least you are now fully aware that Islam is a stand-alone religion created by a 7th century prophet, that is the opposite of the Word of God.
You will have no excuse when you stand in judgment before the Son of God.
You could die in a car wreck today.

[Summadat]

Interesting, I finally took a look at the link you posted- of the 'muslim' who converted to christianity.  The reason I do not pay attention to christian teachings is because each of them rarely presents anything as evidence, and when they provide something, it is not even substantial, and any cross-examination of their evidence would show it to be contradictory to the case they are making.  The man said that he came to christianity under many reasons, one of them is because Jesus claimed divinity.  Is he a christian scholar?  Someone ought to tell him that they can never show a single quote of Jesus making such a statement.  Everything they would provide as evidence would be entirely out of context, and completely unsubstantiated.

So I already knew it was a waste of time.  Man, if you want to preach a religion surrounding a man, you must show direct quote that the man makes claims to x,y and z.  If you cannot, then the theory you are trying to present are simply your own doing.  So if you want to go with John 1:1...even though many christian scholars threw this verse out as a fabrication, there is a link :   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

This link directly examines that verse in its greek text, and then show its translation, and how it is used as a convenient argument instead of a substantial one.  Besides, you might want to take a look at Exodus 7:1, (God told Moses that he would make him a God unto pharoah)- could it be then said that God wanted pharoah to worship Moses?  And then ask why didn't the Jews worship Moses, and then, since it is in your own bible, ask yourself why don't you worship Moses too.  But the christian pick and choose verses of convenience to prove a point in which the very verses chosen are either fabricated or taken out of context.

Learn about Islam... I know you might not like to pray 5 times a day- (even though u said u were instructed to pray without ceasing), you might not like restraining yourself, you might not like the resrtrictions on simply expressing vile opinions.  You might not like many things in Islam.  But there is a verse in the Qur'an that says '...and even if you may not like it, it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you.'  And I am sure there are mothers who tells this to their children when feeding them veggies too.  Learn the truth and stop making excuses based on the actions of others.  I can't say- I am not going to school because there is a lot of promiscuity. I should not deny food because there are so many obese people.  I should not dislike a race because a person brushed me the wrong way; nor should I blame a religion because someone killed someone.  Question is, will you do what is right, or will you do what you like?

[Pete]

Interesting, I finally took a look at the link you posted- of the 'muslim' who converted to christianity.  The reason I do not pay attention to christian teachings is because each of them rarely presents anything as evidence, and when they provide something, it is not even substantial, and any cross-examination of their evidence would show it to be contradictory to the case they are making.  The man said that he came to christianity under many reasons, one of them is because Jesus claimed divinity.  Is he a christian scholar?  Someone ought to tell him that they can never show a single quote of Jesus making such a statement.  Everything they would provide as evidence would be entirely out of context, and completely unsubstantiated.

I don't know which individual you singled out, but I would suggest that more than one has converted.
Like this page full of converted former Muslims from "Muslim Journey to Hope" that have come to know the love and the truth of the one true God through a personal relationship with Him: http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp

Over 6,000 Muslims come to the love of the one true God per year - in Africa alone even though they know that it may well mean a death sentence at the hands of Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYI5t3JhfJs&NR=1

Very powerful testimonies at "Muslims for Christ": http://www.exmuslim.com/

Many more at "Answering Islam": http://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html

So I already knew it was a waste of time.  Man, if you want to preach a religion surrounding a man, you must show direct quote that the man makes claims to x,y and z.  If you cannot, then the theory you are trying to present are simply your own doing.

You choose self-imposed blindness. They didn't. Not everyone is part of God's elect.

So if you want to go with John 1:1...even though many christian scholars threw this verse out as a fabrication, there is a link :   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlD-1fMU5WA

There is no shortage of self-proclaimed authoritarians in the "church". But there is only one authority and that is Jesus Christ.

Those who pretend to be scholars as they grind their own apostate axe were prophesied. That you have a preference for false prophets is as it should be, but even they don't deny Jesus sacrifice on the Cross or His being the only begotten Son of God.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also I warned you about corrupt 19th century pop-Greek translations. Here is the Textus Receptus on John 1:1:

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) John 1:1 |  en  <1722> {IN [THE]}  arch  <746> {BEGINNING}  hn  <2258> (5713) {WAS}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD}  hn  <2258> (5713) {WAS}  proV  <4314>  ton  <3588> {WITH}  qeon  <2316> {GOD,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD}  hn  <2258> (5713) {WAS}  o  <3588> {THE}  logoV  <3056> {WORD.}
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

This link directly examines that verse in its greek text, and then show its translation, and how it is used as a convenient argument instead of a substantial one.  Besides, you might want to take a look at Exodus 7:1, (God told Moses that he would make him a God unto pharoah)- could it be then said that God wanted pharoah to worship Moses?  And then ask why didn't the Jews worship Moses, and then, since it is in your own bible, ask yourself why don't you worship Moses too.  But the christian pick and choose verses of convenience to prove a point in which the very verses chosen are either fabricated or taken out of context.

Learn about Islam... I know you might not like to pray 5 times a day-...

I would be joining heathens and going directly against God if I performed salat: Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

...(even though u said u were instructed to pray without ceasing),...

That is what a relationship with God is all about.

...you might not like restraining yourself, you might not like the resrtrictions on simply expressing vile opinions.  You might not like many things in Islam.

Certainly it's false prophet first and foremost that has carried his people to perdition for 1400 years.
Take the $50,000 challenge Summadat: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=115.0
The only anti-another-religion religion besides satanism. The opposite of God as revealed through His Word.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/

But there is a verse in the Qur'an that says '...and even if you may not like it, it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you.'  And I am sure there are mothers who tells this to their children when feeding them veggies too.

I don't like evil, and Islam demonstrates itself to be exactly that, not only through the confused and violent Quran, but through the fruit that it's book has caused it to exhibit around the world for 1400 years.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Learn the truth and stop making excuses based on the actions of others.  I can't say- I am not going to school because there is a lot of promiscuity. I should not deny food because there are so many obese people.  I should not dislike a race because a person brushed me the wrong way; nor should I blame a religion because someone killed someone.

Attacking non-Muslims is what Islam has been about for 1400 years because of the false prophet, and his evil book.

 

Question is, will you do what is right, or will you do what you like?

I do what is right as God prescribed in His Holy Word, as I am able, while stuck in my flesh.

Islam is antichrist. The opposite of God's prescription for us through His Son my Savior, Jesus Christ. That is why it produces evil around the world today. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Summadat]

And again you lied...you said:

You act as though we haven't had the extensive exchange that we have. Over a hundred verses in the Quran suggest violence against non-Muslims in the dar el harb. For example:

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Fundamental Muslims understand what to do:
In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church.  The note left behind reads:  "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."

Well the full verse is: Surah 8:12
  Remember when you Lord revealed to the angels: 'Verily I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all fingers and toes...

It was a verse of retrospect giving a lesson.  It is not an instructive to kill innocent folk as you have deceitfully suggested.

Then you blam islam for an anonymous killer? What if it was some depraved atheist? Or Jew? Or catholic? I mean I hope you haven't forgotten the Inquisition, nor the Holocaust.  And you still bring up these stupid crimes as evidence?! Should I then reference the christian clergymen that have raped children? Or assigned slavery as a necessary evil? Or do pornography? Or prostitution? And judge your religion according to every vile and depraved crime that happens in every single christian country everyday?  Then why do you judge my religion based on anonymous crimes?  Your argument belittles your brainpower.  Think more, talk less.

Then you sidestep my question...I simply ask you to view a video; I viewed the one u sent me of the convert- and it was simply riddled with remarkably insane opinions and conjectures.  The man said that when he found out that Jesus said he was God and the christians were treating him so nicely, he converted to christianity.  Well some christian should tap him on the shoulder and say: 'dude...ummm, about the Jesus is God thing, well he never said that, and ummm, we're still working on other interpretations so we can get there...'.  As for the treating him nicely- well only an ignoramus treats someone badly without cause. Then you accuse me of being nice only as a facade of trickery?  And only an ignoramus blames a stereotypes a religion because of random and unrelated crimes.

Then, an idiot asked me to prove that Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was not a murderer, rapist...etc; using the most defamatory and insulting titles.  To that idiot: why should I disprove if you can NEVER prove so yourself!  How can you go to a man you've never met, and tell him: prove to me that you're never killed someone? I refuse to dialogue with someone who's only cause is to distort the truth, to spread confusion, to run behind dark alleys, to mislead others, to lie and continuously defame others without an iota of justification. 

You should have continued reading the few following verses in Surah 8:-
12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allâh and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment.

14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

15. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them.

16. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day - unless it be a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own), - he indeed has drawn upon himself wrath from Allâh. And his abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination!

17. You killed them not, but Allâh killed them. And you (Muhammad ) threw not when you did throw but Allâh threw, that He might test the believers by a fair trial from Him. Verily, Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

18. This (is the fact) and surely, Allâh weakens the deceitful plots of the disbelievers.

19. (O disbelievers) if you ask for a judgement, now has the judgement come unto you and if you cease (to do wrong), it will be better for you, and if you return (to the attack), so shall We return, and your forces will be of no avail to you, however numerous it be, and verily, Allâh is with the believers.

20. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad ) while you are hearing.

21. And be not like those who say: "We have heard," but they hear not.

22. Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allâh are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).

23. Had Allâh known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen, and even if He had made them listen, they would but have turned away, averse (to the truth).

... there's a verse that follows this...and you might want to read it:-

http://noblequran.com/translation/index.html

On the Day of Judgment, you will be asked if the message had not come to you- and you will be unable lie or deny it.  The only ones whom are excluded from confessing would be those that were legitimately/clinically insane.  Peace man, you get no more responses from me if you continue in the fashion of presenting pictures and stories of no pertinence to the discussion.

[Pete]

And again you lied...you said:

You act as though we haven't had the extensive exchange that we have. Over a hundred verses in the Quran suggest violence against non-Muslims in the dar el harb. For example:

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Fundamental Muslims understand what to do:
In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church.  The note left behind reads:  "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."

Well the full verse is: Surah 8:12
  Remember when you Lord revealed to the angels: 'Verily I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all fingers and toes...

It was a verse of retrospect giving a lesson.  It is not an instructive to kill innocent folk as you have deceitfully suggested.

Giving a lessen. Kill unbelievers - because they are unbelievers. THE OPPOSITE OF CHRISTIANITY AS PRESCRIBED BY THE NEW TESTAMENT. But that shouldn't surprise you by now. Whether the repetitive prayer of the heathen, or imams dressing in girls hats, or the denial that Jesus dies on the Cross, or denial of the 120 or so verses that declare Him the Son of God.

But sorry Sum. The word will in that verse, indicates future tense, not retrospect.
That's why Muslims murder those in the dar el harb, all around the world.

Then you blam islam for an anonymous killer?

You are still acting like we have had no exchange at all.
You pretend that it is about one murder, just like you pretended that it was one Muslim conversion to Christianity.
Sum there have been over 11,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
The Muslims that commit these crimes believe they are doing what God wants.

What if it was some depraved atheist? Or Jew? Or catholic? I mean I hope you haven't forgotten the Inquisition, nor the Holocaust.  And you still bring up these stupid crimes as evidence?! Should I then reference the christian clergymen that have raped children? Or assigned slavery as a necessary evil? Or do pornography? Or prostitution? And judge your religion according to every vile and depraved crime that happens in every single christian country everyday?  Then why do you judge my religion based on anonymous crimes?  Your argument belittles your brainpower.  Think more, talk less.

The same foolish argument. It's about Islam's dar el salaam, slaughtering the non-Muslim world, or dar el harb.
The Islamic first Jihad conquered nearly the whole known world. There was nothing anonymous about the Islamic conquest of the world of the first Jihad, nor is there anything anonymous about Islamic conquest of the world by populating like bunnies today, except for the media censoring of the news.
You are either ignorant, or running and hiding like a little girl.

Then you sidestep my question...I simply ask you to view a video; I viewed the one u sent me of the convert- and it was simply riddled with remarkably insane opinions and conjectures.  The man said that when he found out that Jesus said he was God and the christians were treating him so nicely, he converted to christianity.  Well some christian should tap him on the shoulder and say: 'dude...ummm, about the Jesus is God thing, well he never said that, and ummm, we're still working on other interpretations so we can get there...'.

You choose Mohammedanism. You reject Jesus' shed blood that would have saved you.

As for the treating him nicely- well only an ignoramus treats someone badly without cause.

Or a Mohammedan treatment of a non-Muslim.

"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."

"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""

Then you accuse me of being nice only as a facade of trickery?

That's the problem when a system allows lying, as well as prohibiting Muslims from being friends of kafir.
One can never know when one is lying to advance Islam or not.

And only an ignoramus blames a stereotypes a religion because of random and unrelated crimes.

An ignoramus denies the holocaust, denies the Islamic first jihad, when they are matters of historical record, as is the 11,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks just since 9-11.

Then, an idiot asked me to prove that Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was not a murderer, rapist...etc; using the most defamatory and insulting titles.  To that idiot: why should I disprove if you can NEVER prove so yourself!  How can you go to a man you've never met, and tell him: prove to me that you're never killed someone?
 

He proved his claims through the Quran and the hadith. Each of the epithets he hurls at Mohammed are a link to the relevant passages in your "holy" books.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

I refuse to dialogue with someone who's only cause is to distort the truth, to spread confusion, to run behind dark alleys, to mislead others, to lie and continuously defame others without an iota of justification. 

He has a list of those that tried to refute that Mohammed qualified under his epithets and failed, including transcripts of the debates:

 Grand Ayatollah Montazeri  vs. Ali Sina.

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi vs. Ali Sina  2006/09/04

Maulana Ajmal Qadri  vs. Ali Sina 2007/11/17

Symposium: Gender Apartheid and Islam

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm

You should have continued reading the few following verses in Surah 8:-
12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

13. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allâh and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment.

14. This is the torment, so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

15. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them.

16. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day - unless it be a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own), - he indeed has drawn upon himself wrath from Allâh. And his abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination!

17. You killed them not, but Allâh killed them. And you (Muhammad ) threw not when you did throw but Allâh threw, that He might test the believers by a fair trial from Him. Verily, Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

18. This (is the fact) and surely, Allâh weakens the deceitful plots of the disbelievers.

19. (O disbelievers) if you ask for a judgement, now has the judgement come unto you and if you cease (to do wrong), it will be better for you, and if you return (to the attack), so shall We return, and your forces will be of no avail to you, however numerous it be, and verily, Allâh is with the believers.

20. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad ) while you are hearing.

21. And be not like those who say: "We have heard," but they hear not.

22. Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allâh are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).

23. Had Allâh known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen, and even if He had made them listen, they would but have turned away, averse (to the truth).

... there's a verse that follows this...and you might want to read it:-

http://noblequran.com/translation/index.html

On the Day of Judgment, you will be asked if the message had not come to you- and you will be unable lie or deny it.  The only ones whom are excluded from confessing would be those that were legitimately/clinically insane.  Peace man, you get no more responses from me if you continue in the fashion of presenting pictures and stories of no pertinence to the discussion.

No need to bother trying to puzzle out the Quran and which verse abrogates which verse.
Everything anyone ever needed to know about Islam and the Quran is contained in just a few verses:

The upper case words (and bolding) are my addition and do not appear in the King James Version or the translations of the Quran.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0

Surah 112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Old Testament prophecy:
Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

Surah 9.30 THE JEWS CALL ‘UZAIR A SON OF GOD, AND THE CHRISTIANS CALL CHRIST THE SON OF GOD. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

Surah 4:157  That they said (in boast), "WE KILLED JESUS CHRIST Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-

Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, EVEN DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, AND BRING UPON THEMSELVES SWIFT DESTRUCTION.

Islam is the opposite of God's Word.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.