If God didn't father Jesus then who did?

[UmraoJaan]

That is a good question Peter.

I ask you If GOD didn't father Adam then who did?

Humans have Divine Laws which we live by. Am I not right? Like the female and male produce children together. A male cannot produce without a female and vice verse.

GOD does not abide by Divine Laws he is above all laws. GOD is not human. Human is GODs creation. Right?

Adam is prove enough that GOD does not have to play by any rules. He created Adam with no father and no mother, then out of him he created Eve. He created Jesus with only a mother and no father.

So ask yourself when insisting that Jesus was fathered by GOD and that he is his begotten son, then who was Adams father? Or Eve for that matter?

The truth is GOD is not his creation, He does not follow the same laws set down for mankind.

The whole "Jesus is the begotten son of GOD" thing remind me of Greek God and Goddesses and how they would come down to earth mate with humans and produce Demi-Gods. To even insinuate that of The Almighty disgusts me to be honest.

Lets Discuss.

[Peter]

That is a good question Peter.

I ask you If GOD didn't father Adam then who did?

Was Adam conceived by, and born of, a virgin?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Humans have Divine Laws which we live by. Am I not right? Like the female and male produce children together. A male cannot produce without a female and vice verse.

GOD does not abide by Divine Laws he is above all laws. GOD is not human. Human is GODs creation. Right?

Adam is prove enough that GOD does not have to play by any rules. He created Adam with no father and no mother, then out of him he created Eve. He created Jesus with only a mother and no father.

So then Mary conceived Jesus all by herself?

Don't you really mean that you have to reject the 245 verses that refer to God as the Father, many or most of which are Jesus' own declaration, in order to follow Mohammed? Did you take a moment to review that thread?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

 
So ask yourself when insisting that Jesus was fathered by GOD and that he is his begotten son, then who was Adams father? Or Eve for that matter?

The truth is GOD is not his creation, He does not follow the same laws set down for mankind.

The whole "Jesus is the begotten son of GOD" thing remind me of Greek God and Goddesses and how they would come down to earth mate with humans and produce Demi-Gods. To even insinuate that of The Almighty disgusts me to be honest.

Lets Discuss.

Again, welcome to the forum!

[resistingrexmundi]

GOD does not abide by Divine Laws he is above all laws

Sorry for butting in but I have to ask. Is this the reasoning you use to reconcile the dubious nature attributed to God in the koran. That He is accountable to nothing and noone and so can violate mandates that set the parameters of His nature. God is bound by His word. If He says something He has to make it so. Otherwise He would be fallible like man and not be God.

Furthermore Adam was not concieved. He was wholly created as was Eve. Jesus was concieved by the express will of God. So in other words Jesus came to be because of God. God caused Jesus to exist.

begotten-1) single of its kind, only

Jesus was the only one of His kind. To be born by the express will of God without the need of a human father, and to fully contain the Spirit of God.

begotten-a) to engender, cause to arise, excite

Jesus was caused to arise and exist by God. That is another reason He is the begotten of the Father.

The whole "Jesus is the begotten son of GOD" thing remind me of Greek God and Goddesses and how they would come down to earth mate with humans and produce Demi-Gods. To even insinuate that of The Almighty disgusts me to be honest. 

Those things are brought to your mind because you are looking at them with carnal eyes. Your analogy falls short because it presupposes that Christians teach God had intercourse with Mary, like the pagan gods in greek mythology.

[Peter]

GOD does not abide by Divine Laws he is above all laws

Sorry for butting in but I have to ask.

There is no such thing as butting in in this forum, unless a thread is created specifically, to be one on one.

[UmraoJaan]

That is a good question Peter.

I ask you If GOD didn't father Adam then who did?

Was Adam conceived by, and born of, a virgin?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The point is not about the human aspect of whether Mary a mortal concieved a virgin or not.

It's GOD. Did GOD father Adam in the same sense that you believe he Fathered Jesus?

Because both came to be in unconventional ways.

The answer is NO GOD only says to something be and it is.

So then Mary conceived Jesus all by herself?

All by herself? GOD placed a baby in the whom of Mary for a reason. The miraculous birth was meant to be sign for the people but by calling him the begotten son of GOD your taking it away.

Don't you really mean that you have to reject the 245 verses that refer to God as the Father, many or most of which are Jesus' own declaration, in order to follow Mohammed? Did you take a moment to review that thread?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

Are you simply going to ignore all the other prophets who called GOD father or the fact that Son of GOD was not only called onto Jesus but other prophets aswell?

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

The truth is there is not one verse said by Jesus in where he has said worship me I am 1/3 of the Holy Trinity.

Its the truth.

[Peter]

That is a good question Peter.

I ask you If GOD didn't father Adam then who did?

Was Adam conceived by, and born of, a virgin?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 The point is not about the human aspect of whether Mary a mortal concieved a virgin or not.

It's GOD. Did GOD father Adam in the same sense that you believe he Fathered Jesus?

Not at all, as scripture makes clear. Further God and Jesus are coexistent - from the beginning.
Jesus is a part of God just like God's Spirit is. His being born of a virgin is how God chose to manifest - or reveal - Him to us. Providing the perfect and sinless example for all mankind to follow, and thus the perfect sacrifice through which we all may live.
Jesus is the way God chose to show Himself to us in a way we could understand in human terms.

Because both came to be in unconventional ways.

The answer is NO GOD only says to something be and it is.

I know that's the way is was through the child-like eyes of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate.

 

So then Mary conceived Jesus all by herself?

All by herself? GOD placed a baby in the whom of Mary for a reason. The miraculous birth was meant to be sign for the people but by calling him the begotten son of GOD your taking it away.

Not at all. It only looks that way to you because of Mohammed's blasphemy
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0

[Peter]

 

Don't you really mean that you have to reject the 245 verses that refer to God as the Father, many or most of which are Jesus' own declaration, in order to follow Mohammed? Did you take a moment to review that thread?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=610.0

Are you simply going to ignore all the other prophets who called GOD father or the fact that Son of GOD was not only called onto Jesus but other prophets aswell?

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Ignore prophets? Not at all and thank you for that verse. That is a fulfilled Messianic prophecy.

Acts 13:33   God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

[Peter]

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

That passage is about nations.

The truth is there is not one verse said by Jesus in where he has said worship me I am 1/3 of the Holy Trinity.

Its the truth.

Why would you think God would be under any obligation to have you dictate what Jesus said?
What you are really saying is that you've chosen to adopt the child-like mind of a 7th century illiterate, and then to try to use it to understand God.
You've never read the Gospel have you.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

You deny the very Son that will be our judge.

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

In this forum category you have seen the hundreds of verses that testify to God the Father, to His Son Jesus Christ, and here is a thread that lists verses related to the Spirit of God.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1225.0

Yet in spite of the evidence of the many hundreds of verses that testify to what some have dubbed the "trinity" you have to reject all of those verses, and the Gospel itself, to follow Mohammed's STAND-ALONE 7th century religion.

"Its the truth." As you can see, you have been fed a pack of lies, likely from Greek sophist styled liars like Ahmed Deedat.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=273.0

[Peter]

Do you believe that God has a Spirit?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0

[UmraoJaan]

I know that's the way is was through the child-like eyes of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate.

You will never find a Muslim who insults Jesus or any other prophet and that is the type of company I would rather discuss with.

I'm just gonna say this. I hope GOD shows you a HUGE sign and guides you on the true path before Judgment Day, because the way your talking about his messenger I fear for you. I literally feel a gut pain when I think of what will happen to you.

I will tell you what happens to people who worshiped anyone but Allah on Judgment Day so you can not say you were never told.

Allah will gather them the ones who called upon idols, humans, djinn/devils and angels.

They will say we didn't know we were suppose to worship you (Allah) but we have done good deeds on earth aswell, Allah will bring them Jesus and ask Jesus if he told people to worship him, Jesus will say to Allah you know whats in my heart. And Allah knows everything. They will have no helpers on that day.

For the Idol worshipers their own idol will speak and say they never knew nor did they say worship me.

The Angels will deny them.

The Djinn will lie and say we never told them to worship us.

Anyways I won't be coming back to this forum it is too negative and their is only 1 other person posting and they are posting lies.

Goodbye Peter best of luck.

[Peter]

I know that's the way is was through the child-like eyes of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate.

You will never find a Muslim who insults Jesus or any other prophet and that is the type of company I would rather discuss with.

It's a simple matter of fact. Didn't you ever read Mohammed's descriptions of his heaven and hell?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=264.0

The feeble excuse of "insult" only further confirms that Muslims only ever see one side of the coin, as in all things, from wife beating to beheading. What you bring to this forum is not only insulting to Jesus, but downright blasphemy, yet you can't recognize it through a heart and head claimed by Mohammed. I understand why you can't see so I don't bother to make accusations of "insulting Jesus".
Saying you love Jesus, for example, doesn't make you any less of an antichrist, according to the Bible.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

God isn't about what we think or wish He is. We can only know Him through the record He gave us. So what does God make of Mohammed and his followers?

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

You reject ALL of the prophets and witnesses as revealed through the 1600 year record of God to mankind to follow A SINGLE 7th century "prophet" who never had a fulfilled prophecy, that never performed a single miracle, that not a single person ever heard "Allah" or Gabriel give a "revelation" to. Like this one

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

A man that was as much the EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus Christ as his book is to the Gospel.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

  

I'm just gonna say this. I hope GOD shows you a HUGE sign and guides you on the true path before Judgment Day, because the way your talking about his messenger I fear for you.

Either ALL of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of God to mankind were liars, or Mohammed was a liar through his heavily abrogated 23 year 7th century record.

ONE MUST CHOOSE. Did you review the forum category on Mohammed?

I literally feel a gut pain when I think of what will happen to you.

I will tell you what happens to people who worshiped anyone but Allah on Judgment Day so you can not say you were never told.

But I already showed you.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where THE BEAST and THE FALSE PROPHET [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
   
Who do you suppose THE FALSE PROPHET is? The tooth fairy? Or the most successful false prophet in world history that has led his minions to perdition for 1400 years, and another 1.5 billion in the world today. And this with a single individual’s 23 year record that is in such a mess that 71 out of 114 suras are subject to abrogation.

 

Allah will gather them the ones who called upon idols, humans, djinn/devils and angels.

Indeed a whole section of the Quran is devoted to Jinn demons isn't it? Didn't some demons even become Muslims? What does that tell you about being a Muslim? Mohammed's grandpa loved to consult with Jinn. They are the reason he set up al-Marwa and al-Safra.
Asaf  Naelah were the Jinn priest and priestess worshiped there. Muslims still run back and forth between them just like the pagan Jinn worshipers did.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

 

They will say we didn't know we were suppose to worship you (Allah) but we have done good deeds on earth aswell, Allah will bring them Jesus and ask Jesus if he told people to worship him, Jesus will say to Allah you know whats in my heart. And Allah knows everything. They will have no helpers on that day.

For the Idol worshipers their own idol will speak and say they never knew nor did they say worship me.

It isn't me that bows to a black stone former moon god idol 5 times a day, and is obligated to travel to it and march around it 7 times, kissing or at least pointing to it each time around, just as the pagans circumambulated it before Mohammed.
http://petewaldo.com/hajj_umra.htm

 

The Angels will deny them.

The Djinn will lie and say we never told them to worship us.

Anyways I won't be coming back to this forum it is too negative and their is only 1 other person posting and they are posting lies.

Goodbye Peter best of luck.

I well understand why you needed to create an excuse to leave in light of the evidence.
If all we did here was plant that first seed of doubt, that is wildly beyond what we could have hoped for. We well understand how tough life can be for the Muslim that decides to leave Mohammed's religion. But is that really a compelling enough reason to bet your eternity on Mohammed and his antichrist religion?
May God bless you and show you THE truth.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Do you usually do book reports on books you never read? Why not read the Gospel? Here is a link to the same version that Deedat used to quote from.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

[punisher]

                                     


If Jesus was GOD:

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?



If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

The "God" Title:

How come Christians take the "God" (theos in Greek) title literally with Jesus in Isiah 9:6 and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called Gods ?

The Prophets who were called "God" in the Bible are as follows:

Prophet Moses in Exodus 7:1

The Devil in Corinthians 4:4 (the word for God in this verse is theos in Greek, the same used for Jesus that was translated as "God")

Multiple Prophets in Psalms 82:6

King David in Psalm 45:3

Note: The only unique title given to GOD in the Bible that was not given to others at all are Jehova, GOD, and GOD LORD. "God", "Most Mighty" and "Almighty One" are titles that were given to Jesus, other Prophets and to Satan himself in the Bible.

Very important note: Did you know that in the languages of Arabic and Hebrew the father of the house can be called the God of the house? Jesus was the God (father or leader) of his people and their father according to Isiah 9:6. Jesus being the leader and the king, it is normal for him to be called the father of his people (Father in Isiah 9:6), and because he is their father he automatically becomes their God. My father is my God in Arabic and Hebrew.

Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?

If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).

Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!

Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."

[Peter]

To answer your question I must first ask one.
Do you understand what the term "progressive revelation" means?

After you failed to answer to a question I asked you in that regard on another thread, I moved your post to that thread. I recommend you start there.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

[punisher]

To answer your question I must first ask one.
Do you understand what the term "progressive revelation" means?

After you failed to answer to a question I asked you in that regard on another thread, I moved your post to that thread. I recommend you start there.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

You didn't wait because i am not always online, actually i didn't see your post yesterday.


and you start  guess work? Man are you kidding, or running i don't know

Or u are afraid of me?

as per rules you should wait for one day?


Let See

"progressive revelation"

A Book with So Many errors and Lies



So what is left and don't believe in Bible's man made progressive revelation

[Peter]

To answer your question I must first ask one.
Do you understand what the term "progressive revelation" means?

After you failed to answer to a question I asked you in that regard on another thread, I moved your post to that thread. I recommend you start there.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

You didn't wait because i am not always online, actually i didn't see your post yesterday.

You failed to answer it the first time with one of your non-answers.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.msg6179#msg6179

and you start  guess work? Man are you kidding, or running i don't know

Or u are afraid of me?

as per rules you should wait for one day?


Let See

"progressive revelation"

A Book with So Many errors and Lies

In order to denegrate the Scriptures and advance your 7th century cult you had to turn to the Jehovah's Witness 19th century cult. They follow the false prophet Charles Taze Russell. They have to reject the Scriptures to follow Russell, like you have to reject the Scriptures to follow the false prophet Mohammed. You turn to Charles Taze Russell because he tickles your ears with lies just like you turned to your Jewish friend, Michael H. Hart that denegrates the Gospel because he denies that Jesus is the Messiah.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1491.msg6165#msg6165

Jehovah's Witness is a non-scripturally supported cult much like the non-Quranic cult of the Ahmadis that Sunnis hate so much and persecute, because the cult wants desperately, but of course falsely, to believe Mohammedan Islam is peaceful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims#Persecution_of_Ahmadis

So what is left and don't believe in Bible's man made progressive revelation

If you don't even understand the concept of progressive revelation, then it would seem you don't know much about Islamic scholarship or your false prophet, and how to understand the Quran.

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

[punisher]

you didn't have answer or u are running

[Peter]

you didn't have answer or u are running

You are the one running away. The answer is in progressive revelation. You ran away from my asking you if you understand the concept on many occasions now.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

You remove verses from context pretending that somehow they support your false beliefs. The 1600 year record of God to mankind involved a continuing revelation of God and His relationship with mankind as we developed and progressed. The revelation of Jesus Christ to His people through the Gospel did not end with the verses that you removed from context, while He was gradually revealing Himself to His witnesses and speaking as a man that was fully in the flesh, but that revelation reached conclusion after He was crucified, died and was resurrected, at which time we learn such as

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[punisher]

Dear progressive revelation is only true if u have only one Book and the book is perfect in all aspects, but as we see the bible is corrupted so no progressive revelation?
Still no answer?

you didn't have answer or u are running

[Peter]

I am going to move all your posts to spam storage this morning, until you quit ignoring the post at the following link that you have repeatedly ignored in several threads.
Your posts can be moved back to their current locations after you comply.
You will not be allowed to ignore posts any more. Please see forum decorum. You are required to engage in an exchange.
Now please answer to this post link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1482.msg6247#msg6247

[punisher]

I am going to move all your posts to spam storage this morning, until you quit ignoring the post at the following link that you have repeatedly ignored in several threads.
Your posts can be moved back to their current locations after you comply.
You will not be allowed to ignore posts any more. Please see forum decorum. You are required to engage in an exchange.
Now answer to the requests made of you at this post link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1482.msg6247#msg6247

Very Good I like that, May be u should move whole bible to spam???

[Peter]

I restored your post to this thread, but before you reply here, we need to finish our chat on the thread that you started at this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1482.msg6430#msg6430

Dear progressive revelation is only true if u have only one Book and the book is perfect in all aspects, but as we see the bible is corrupted so no progressive revelation?
Still no answer?

you didn't have answer or u are running

You don't seem to understand the concept. For example, did the Gospel close with this verse?

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Of course it didn't. That's why we have to read on to get the whole picture. How is God revealed as the Gospel closes, after Jesus' crucifixion, death and resurrection?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus is the way that God revealed Himself to us that our human understanding could comprehend. Beginning as a man that was fully flesh - though unlike any other He is sinless - and ending with the revelation that Jesus is God. The way God chose to manifest Himself to mankind

Here's a thread on progressive revelation
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0

[Bistabuster]

I know that's the way is was through the child-like eyes of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate.

You will never find a Muslim who insults Jesus or any other prophet and that is the type of company I would rather discuss with.

I'm just gonna say this. I hope GOD shows you a HUGE sign and guides you on the true path before Judgment Day, because the way your talking about his messenger I fear for you. I literally feel a gut pain when I think of what will happen to you.

I will tell you what happens to people who worshiped anyone but Allah on Judgment Day so you can not say you were never told.

Allah will gather them the ones who called upon idols, humans, djinn/devils and angels.

They will say we didn't know we were suppose to worship you (Allah) but we have done good deeds on earth aswell, Allah will bring them Jesus and ask Jesus if he told people to worship him, Jesus will say to Allah you know whats in my heart. And Allah knows everything. They will have no helpers on that day.

For the Idol worshipers their own idol will speak and say they never knew nor did they say worship me.

The Angels will deny them.

The Djinn will lie and say we never told them to worship us.

Anyways I won't be coming back to this forum it is too negative and their is only 1 other person posting and they are posting lies.

Goodbye Peter best of luck.

And, what will you think when you find out you are wrong?  I'll tell you the answer.  It will be too late.  I know this is hard for you to understand but Islam is insulting Jesus every day.  let's look at 5 points about Jesus that is talked about in the Quran.

1.  Jesus was born by a virgin, Muhammad was not.
2.  Jesus never sinned, ever!  Muhammad admitted he was a sinner.
3.  Jesus performed miracles like healing people and raising them from the dead.  Muhammad didn't do that.
4.  Jesus told prophecies.  Muhammad couldn't tell one prophecy as of yet.
5.  Jesus never died and is still alive today.  Muhammad died and is still dead.

So, if the Quran is absolute, then it should say this instead. "There is no other god but Allah and JESUS is his messenger"!  But instead, Muhammad is his messenger.  You know, Muhammad, according to your Quran, who was not a virgin birth, always sinned and had to continuously had to ask for forgiveness, couldn't perform miracles of healing or raising people from the dead, couldn't tell one fulfilled prophecy as of to date AND died and is still dead!  Muhammad did nothing spectacular!  Jesus simply did everything better.  Muhammad failed at everything and Jesus succeeded in everything.

So, why would you even want to honor Muhammad who did nothing and dishonor Jesus who did things Muhammad never did?  Because Muhammad couldn't do any of those 5 things!  To me, Jesus is second runner up to Muhammad, the man who could do nothing.

So, you had better be absolutely sure that what you believe is correct for if it isn't (which it is not) then you are in a world of hurt.  There are some people out there that the ONLY way for them to see the truth is to die first.  Read this story.  Put yourself in the shoes of the rich man. 

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16)

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Jesus indeed rose from the dead and you will die denying that fact.  That is until you meet with Jesus face to face and then (and only then) shall you see the truth!  Review verse 27-31 one more time.  That's what each and every Muslim will have to go through IF you deny Jesus. 

God did indeed send ONE MAN (Jesus) back from the dead.  Do you believe now?  No?  You will wish you had being in the rich man's predicament!

Do you really want to take that awful chance?  Muhammad could care less about you.  Muhammad only cared about Muhammad.  Jesus cared enough for you that He DIED in your place so you don't have to go through what the rich man has to go through for all eternity!  That's a long time!!  You still have time but I'm sure it is a very limited time.  You had better act fast before time runs out.  When time runs out, there is no second chances.

[Patricio81]

                                     


If Jesus was GOD:

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?



If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

The "God" Title:

How come Christians take the "God" (theos in Greek) title literally with Jesus in Isiah 9:6 and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called Gods ?

The Prophets who were called "God" in the Bible are as follows:

Prophet Moses in Exodus 7:1

The Devil in Corinthians 4:4 (the word for God in this verse is theos in Greek, the same used for Jesus that was translated as "God")

Multiple Prophets in Psalms 82:6

King David in Psalm 45:3

Note: The only unique title given to GOD in the Bible that was not given to others at all are Jehova, GOD, and GOD LORD. "God", "Most Mighty" and "Almighty One" are titles that were given to Jesus, other Prophets and to Satan himself in the Bible.

Very important note: Did you know that in the languages of Arabic and Hebrew the father of the house can be called the God of the house? Jesus was the God (father or leader) of his people and their father according to Isiah 9:6. Jesus being the leader and the king, it is normal for him to be called the father of his people (Father in Isiah 9:6), and because he is their father he automatically becomes their God. My father is my God in Arabic and Hebrew.

Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?

If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).

Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!

Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."

This might be very old but hopefully someone is still viewing these forums. Punisher, all these questions can be answered. Since you basivally posted a book it will take some time to answer them.



If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

Mark 12:29 is actually a daily prayer that is said twice in Judaism. It is known as the Shema.

The Shema is one of only two prayers that are specifically commanded in Torah (the other is Birkat Ha-Mazon -- grace after meals). It is the oldest fixed daily prayer in Judaism, recited morning and night since ancient times. It consists of three biblical passages, two of which specifically say to speak of these things "when you lie down and when you rise up." This commandment is fulfilled by including the Shema in the liturgy for Ma'ariv (evening services) and Shacharit (morning services). Traditional prayerbooks also include a Bedtime Shema, a series of passages including the Shema to be read at home before going to bed at night.

Part 1: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 Part 2: Deuteronomy 11:13-21 Part 3: Numbers 15:37-41

The first part of the Shema begins with one of the best-known, most fundamental expressions of Jewish belief, and the one from which this prayer gets its name: Shema Yisra'el... (Hear, Israel). This expression is so fundamental that the most liberal Reform synagogue I know has these words carved on the outside of the building in foot-high letters (albeit in English). The second line of this part (Barukh sheim k'vod...) is actually not part of this passage from the Torah. It doesn't even appear anywhere in the Bible. It's a congregational response from the days of the Temple: whenever the High Priest would say the Divine Name, the people would respond with this line. Today, it is not said aloud except during Yom Kippur services.

Please remember that the New Testament wasnt written and codified well after that death and ascension of Yeshua (Jesus). In orther words everyone is adhering to Torah and not creating a new religion of sorts.

 Mark 12:29 is just confirming the Torah. Also that all prayer times (Sacharit, Mincha and Maariv) are communal prayers using the word "WE" as in Israel. All of this is in the Siddur as well.  So Hear O Yisrael the lord is our G-d the lord is One. Is just a prayer confirming who he is, the commandments and to teach your children these rules as well. The word in hebrew is Echad. Oneness or unity. This is also affirmed with people wearing Tzitzit. Yeshua wore them as well.

 In order to see what the New Testment is saying you have to understand the Tanach (Old Testament first).  I hoope this clears up your question. I will answer the rest of your post. However, im at work now.

Remember although Yeshua is the Moshiach he has to come as the suffering servant and then the King. He came first to remove the sin that got us barred from the Garden and Yeshua is G-d coming down to us to show us how to correctly IMPLEMENT Torah .

[Patricio81]

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

This is Sanhedrin/Legal talk. Yeshua is a Rabbi (who is a Pharisee himself) who is versed in Torah, Talmud, Zohar etc. Rabbis today essentially begin their ministry around 30yrs after spending decades in the Yeshiva. If Yeshua bears "false witness" of himself as the Moshiach, he has cause Ma'at or treason (Exodus 20-24). Which as a result, will invalidate him from being the Moshiach. However, how does he bear  true witness to himself as the moshiach? Hes telling the, to look to Torah. Every time they ask him these question he essentially tells them to turn back to Torah. He clearly tells the cursed generation to turn back to Jonah. If you loved Moses you would have loved him. you cannot jettison the hebraics nor Torah from what Yeshua is saying. Youre just chopping up scripture to fit your posts instead of looking at what Yeshua is actually saying.

 Yeshua CANNOT contradict any aspect of the Torah, if he does he cannot be the Moshiach. Which is what many Pharisee and Sadducee are trying to do when they question him so he can contradict himself. All of these people are very learned people in torah. If Yeshua is discredited as the Moshiach his powerful Nazarite Judaism movement would fall to the side and the corrupt Sanhedrin would have maintained their problem and Israel would have been lost. Thankfully the lkatter did not happen. 

[Patricio81]

Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?

If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).

Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!

Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."


Actually, even in Judaism this is incorrect. Since Judaism and modern day christianity believe in the Moshiach ben Yosef (suffering servent) and the Moshiach ben David (Messianic King). However, this is ONE PERSON and the latter hasnt happened yet. However, in Islam the anti Christ the savior...but thats another time.

So laying on hands, casting out deamons, healing the sick  although are part of what the moshiach can do those arent the finite signs. Paul even says that these things  ARE MILK (BABY FOOD) FOR ALL OF ISRAEL AND THEY SHOULD BE ON BIGGER AND HIGHER THINGS. So using Elijah and Elisha are moot.  Also Levites could clearly heal leprosy though the Ruach Ha Kodesh (Tazria: Leviticus 12:1 - 13:59) So even viewing rabbinic studes such as the talmus, Zohar., second temple Judaism:

1. He will be able to restore life after 3 days. which is a true sign of the Moshiach per the Talmud itself. Yeshua CLEARLY does this, if he doesnt do this acspet his not the Moshiach. So the Koran aspect of the crucifixion is heresy. Remember the Torah is the main staple of who Yeshua is, the NEw Tetament only affirms.

2. Another glaring issue Muslims seem to forget is that Yeshua is foretold to be a prophet AND a priest. Meaning he had to have LEVITE blood. The people who mentioned beforehand werent Levites.

3. Youre blatnalty ignoring the second aspects of what the MOshiach is as well, which people in the NEw Testmanet adhered to as well.

Let go back to Torah again:

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Yeshua were clearly doing these things because bringing massive amounts of Gentiles to the fold was unheard of. How many were saved in the book of Acts? 3000?

The "trinity" is not a new concept. unfortunately since Constantine removed most of the hebraics and the Sanhedrin the actual translation is goofed up. its actually 3 ATTRIBUTES in one person. G-d has many attributes which is why he goes by various names, El Shaddai, etc. The holy spirit or Ruach Ha Kodesh is found through out "Torah and verbatim on what was breathed into Adam, what Noah used to build the ark,  and Betzelel and Moses used to help build the Temple so that the Ruach could dwell within Israel.

Also Elijah nor Elisha goes to the valley of Dry bones to rectify the the sin of the original generation (whichwill be the his army later on per Exodus), they dont go into the bosom of Abraham and release the old testament saints. Interesting enough, Isaiah, who you quoted, FORETELLS of Yeshuas coming several times.


Another aspect unknown to Muslims that while on the Cross (or tree actually). Yeshua actually says Psalms 22:

Psalm 22[a]

For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

Psalms or Tehillim was also a stand alone book (in addition tothe torah) solely used by Levites while performing all the Korbans, ministering and healing withing the temple. Which Yeshua would know by heart because he himself is a Levite (per Mary).  Also this psalm in known as the Psalm of victory. Victory over what? the True death and the Victory of the Messianic age which was foretold in the through out the Torah. Yeshua is both the Passover Korban and the Yom Kippur Sacrifice. The book of Hebrews also states that Yeshua is the Yom Kippur Sacrifice as well. I see  affirming of every aspect of Torah (since the NT wasnt around) and absolutely zero of Islam, Kaba, or Mohammed.

Oddly enough, Psalms 22 is written by David........Irony.