Do Muslims believe Jesus led a sinless life?

[Pete]

Do Muslims believe Jesus led a sinless life while here on earth?

[OneMuslimUmmah]

Do Muslims believe Jesus led a sinless life while here on earth?

Yes we do believe he did.

He made some mistakes but no sins.

[Peter]

Do Muslims believe Jesus led a sinless life while here on earth?

Yes we do believe he did.

He made some mistakes but no sins.

So how could a man lead a sinless life?
How could a man, throughout his childhood and over almost 40 years, never, for example, have even glanced at a woman and had an inappropriate thought toward fornication?


This is just an aside so don't get distracted from the above with it but I understand that some Muslims also believe that Mary was sinless, like the Roman Catholics believe, but even Mary indicated she needed a Savior:
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=79.0

[OneMuslimUmmah]

Do Muslims believe Jesus led a sinless life while here on earth?

Key:

PBUT = Peace be upon them.
PBUH = Peace be upon him.

Yes Jesus (PBUH) did live a sinless life on Earth.

He made mistakes but made did not sins.

It is the same with all the greatest Messengers of God, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Mohammad (PBUT).

Learn the position of Jesus in Islam here:

answering-christianity.com/blessed_jesus.htm

[OneMuslimUmmah]

Do Muslims believe Jesus led a sinless life while here on earth?

Yes we do believe he did.

He made some mistakes but no sins.

So how could a man lead a sinless life?
How could a man, throughout his childhood and over almost 40 years, never, for example, have even glanced at a woman and had an inappropriate thought toward fornication?


This is just an aside so don't get distracted from the above with it but I understand that some Muslims also believe that Mary was sinless, like the Roman Catholics believe, but even Mary indicated she needed a Savior:
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=79.0

Well he is one of the Mightiest Messengers of God.

God chooses people as messengers who are aware of what they do and can easily resist sin.

This includes Jesus as well as Prophet Mohammad.

[Pete]

Well he is one of the Mightiest Messengers of God.

God chooses people as messengers who are aware of what they do and can easily resist sin.

This includes Jesus as well as Prophet Mohammad.

That's preposterous. Even Mohammed's words and deeds are full of hate.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

His words are why Muslims are full of hate today. Especially for Jews.

He plundered caravans and murdered. He was a sexual madman. His imperialistic conquest was the very embodiment of sin. To pretend that Mohammed was anything but sinful is absurd.

That's why the Islamic Mufti of of Jerusalem conspired shoulder to shoulder with Hitler. That's why middle east Muslims hate Jews and want to "drive them into the sea" and murder them down to the last man.

[OneMuslimUmmah]

Well he is one of the Mightiest Messengers of God.

God chooses people as messengers who are aware of what they do and can easily resist sin.

This includes Jesus as well as Prophet Mohammad.

That's preposterous. Even Mohammed's words and deeds are full of hate.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

His words are why Muslims are full of hate today. Especially for Jews.

He plundered caravans and murdered. He was a sexual madman. His imperialistic conquest was the very embodiment of sin. To pretend that Mohammed was anything but sinful is absurd.

That's why the Islamic Mufti of of Jerusalem conspired shoulder to shoulder with Hitler. That's why middle east Muslims hate Jews and want to "drive them into the sea" and murder them down to the last man.

Surah al-Anfal 8:12 is not why Muslims are full of hate today.

The reason Muslims are full of hate today is the injustice done to them by Christians and Zionists.

Zionists kill innocent Muslims and illegally blockade the Gaza strip. Over 1 000 000 Muslims have been killed by Jewish terrorism ever since Israel formed.

See the pictures of women and children being massacred by Israeli terror attacks. See the pictures of dead and injured victims of Zionist terrorism:

authenticsunnah.org/pali_torture.htm

Americans have killed over 500 000 Iraqi children, and have deformed 1000s of Iraqi children with chemical weapons, that they literally look like aliens;

authenticsunnah.org/iraqi_torture.htm

See the pictures and you will be horified more than you have ever been at the cruelty of the American terrorists.

That is why Muslims get angry.

See the real reasons and see how Muslims suffer everyday.

This will change your mind very much and reveal why Muslims get angry and the reasons behind their attacks.





And about Surah al-Anfal 8:12, it only refers to the diebelievers at the Battle of Bedr.

Allah told us to smite their necks and strike their finger tips.

Striking their finger tips would cripple them and make it easier to attack them and smiting their necks would kill them.

These were disbelievers who tortured and killed so many innocent Muslims from the start of the Message from God Almighty.

Everything has been explained.

[Pete]

(disappeared then restored manually from database)

Well he is one of the Mightiest Messengers of God.

God chooses people as messengers who are aware of what they do and can easily resist sin.

This includes Jesus as well as Prophet Mohammad.

That's preposterous. Even Mohammed's words and deeds are full of hate.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

His words are why Muslims are full of hate today. Especially for Jews.

He plundered caravans and murdered. He was a sexual madman. His imperialistic conquest was the very embodiment of sin. To pretend that Mohammed was anything but sinful is absurd.

That's why the Islamic Mufti of of Jerusalem conspired shoulder to shoulder with Hitler. That's why middle east Muslims hate Jews and want to "drive them into the sea" and murder them down to the last man.

Surah al-Anfal 8:12 is not why Muslims are full of hate today.

The reason Muslims are full of hate today is the injustice done to them by Christians and Zionists.

But even you know this is an invalid and flimsy excuse to deny the second jihad's ambition for global conquest.
How does Zionism explain almost 12,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11? Or two million slain in the Sudan alone. Or:

In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."
"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."
"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children."

"AP - MOGADISHU, Somalia — Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

Zionists kill innocent Muslims and illegally blockade the Gaza strip. Over 1 000 000 Muslims have been killed by Jewish terrorism ever since Israel formed.

See the pictures of women and children being massacred by Israeli terror attacks. See the pictures of dead and injured victims of Zionist terrorism:

authenticsunnah.org/pali_torture.htm

Americans have killed over 500 000 Iraqi children, and have deformed 1000s of Iraqi children with chemical weapons, that they literally look like aliens;

authenticsunnah.org/iraqi_torture.htm

You can believe your propaganda but the world is witness to the U.S. bringing freedom and the right to self-determination of the Iraqi people. I do understand, however, that few things are more vilified by Islam more than freedom.

See the pictures and you will be horified more than you have ever been at the cruelty of the American terrorists.

That is why Muslims get angry.

They aren't angry. They are just busily conquering the world like their book mandates. You know, "...all the mountaintops..." blah blah blah.

See the real reasons and see how Muslims suffer everyday.

Muslims suffer every day because Islam has removed their interest in striving and being productive citizens of the world economy. They were ruined by Mohammed:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live…The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa…and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.” - by Sir Winston Churchill - The River War, Vol. II, pp. 248-50, London; Longman, Green & Co., 1899

This will change your mind very much and reveal why Muslims get angry and the reasons behind their attacks.

And about Surah al-Anfal 8:12, it only refers to the diebelievers at the Battle of Bedr.

Allah told us to smite their necks and strike their finger tips.

That's why Islam is the opposite of God's work. 5 centuries before we were instructed:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Sorry my friend. God didn't flip on us.

Striking their finger tips would cripple them and make it easier to attack them and smiting their necks would kill them.

These were disbelievers who tortured and killed so many innocent Muslims from the start of the Message from God Almighty.

Everything has been explained.

Indeed it has. Islam was prophecied in God's Word, long before Mohammed was ever born.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
   

[OneMuslimUmmah]

(disappeared then restored manually from database)

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br /><br />Well he is one of the Mightiest Messengers of God.<br /><br />God chooses people as messengers who are aware of what they do and can easily resist sin.<br /><br />This includes Jesus as well as Prophet Mohammad.<br />

<br /><br />That's preposterous. Even Mohammed's words and deeds are full of hate. <br /><br />Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them<br /><br />His words are why Muslims are full of hate today. Especially for Jews. <br /><br />He plundered caravans and murdered. He was a sexual madman. His imperialistic conquest was the very embodiment of sin. To pretend that Mohammed was anything but sinful is absurd.<br /><br />That's why the Islamic Mufti of of Jerusalem conspired shoulder to shoulder with Hitler. That's why middle east Muslims hate Jews and want to &quot;drive them into the sea&quot; and murder them down to the last man.<br /><br />

<br /><br />Surah al-Anfal 8:12 is not why Muslims are full of hate today.<br /><br />The reason Muslims are full of hate today is the injustice done to them by Christians and Zionists.<br />

<br /><br />But even you know this is an invalid and flimsy excuse to deny the second jihad's ambition for global conquest.<br />How does Zionism explain almost 12,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11? Or two million slain in the Sudan alone. Or:<br /><br />In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church.&nbsp; The note left behind reads:&nbsp; &quot;We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts.&quot;<br />&quot;Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. &quot;They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes,&quot; one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, &quot;After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.&quot;&quot;<br /><br />&quot;AP - MOGADISHU, Somalia — Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days.&quot;<br /><br />http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm<br /><br />

<br />Zionists kill innocent Muslims and illegally blockade the Gaza strip. Over 1 000 000 Muslims have been killed by Jewish terrorism ever since Israel formed.<br /><br />See the pictures of women and children being massacred by Israeli terror attacks. See the pictures of dead and injured victims of Zionist terrorism:<br /><br />authenticsunnah.org/pali_torture.htm<br /><br />Americans have killed over 500 000 Iraqi children, and have deformed 1000s of Iraqi children with chemical weapons, that they literally look like aliens;<br /><br />authenticsunnah.org/iraqi_torture.htm<br />

<br /><br />You can believe your propaganda but the world is witness to the U.S. bringing freedom and the right to self-determination of the Iraqi people. I do understand, however, that few things are more vilified by Islam more than freedom.<br /><br />

<br />See the pictures and you will be horified more than you have ever been at the cruelty of the American terrorists.<br /><br />That is why Muslims get angry.<br />

<br /><br />They aren't angry. They are just busily conquering the world like their book mandates. You know, &quot;...all the mountaintops...&quot; blah blah blah.<br /><br />

<br /><br />See the real reasons and see how Muslims suffer everyday.<br />

<br />Muslims suffer every day because Islam has removed their interest in striving and being productive citizens of the world economy. They were ruined by Mohammed:<br /><br />“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live…The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa…and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.” - by Sir Winston Churchill - The River War, Vol. II, pp. 248-50, London; Longman, Green &amp; Co., 1899<br /><br />

<br />This will change your mind very much and reveal why Muslims get angry and the reasons behind their attacks.<br /><br /><br />And about Surah al-Anfal 8:12, it only refers to the diebelievers at the Battle of Bedr.<br /><br />Allah told us to smite their necks and strike their finger tips.<br />

<br /><br />That's why Islam is the opposite of God's work. 5 centuries before we were instructed:<br /><br />Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;<br /><br />Sorry my friend. God didn't flip on us.<br /><br />

<br />Striking their finger tips would cripple them and make it easier to attack them and smiting their necks would kill them.<br /><br />These were disbelievers who tortured and killed so many innocent Muslims from the start of the Message from God Almighty.<br /><br />Everything has been explained.<br />

<br />Indeed it has. Islam was prophecied in God's Word, long before Mohammed was ever born.<br />http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm<br />

<br /><br />Everything you said is false.<br /><br />USA does not bring any freedom to the world. They kill and mutilate so many innocent children in Iraq.<br /><br />They kill innocent people for fun, but the media hides that.<br /><br />I am not fooled by any propaganda. It is you who are the fool and your ignorance will cost you your soul for eternity in hell.<br /><br />What some Muslims do is not what Islam teaches. There are Christians who do the same thing, yet we do not place that all over the media, because we are fair and not unfair like you people.<br /><br />The west is aiming to destroy Islam so that it can prosper and take control of the land.<br /><br />Did they find any Nukes in Iraq?<br /><br />No.<br /><br />I gave you a link showing so many pictures of innocent children literally mutilated by Americans, yet you have no sympathy or heart.<br /><br />This is what Christianity teaches you.<br /><br />Will we go to hell?<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Most Muslims (not all) pray, fast, keep away from adultery, avoid divorce, love our neighbours, do righteous behavious, lower our gaze when a woman walks past, shelter orphans, give charity and love our wives, mothers and children, read the Qur'an.<br /><br />This is what Jesus taught in the Bible and yet Muslims follow it and not Chrisitians.<br /><br />Most (not all) Christians never fast, pray, always divorce and commit adultery, perve at women, look at porn, never give alms and do not even read nor look at one word of the Bible.<br /><br />We are more Christians than Christians themselves, so why would we ever go to hell.<br /><br />You people will go to hell, according to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-32, for looking at women to lust for them, when you see pornography and all that crap.<br /><br />But we avoid that.<br /><br />And loving your enemies is stupid.<br /><br />If we love Hitler where would we be?<br /><br />We would be his slaves today.<br /><br />We do pray for those who persecute us in accordance with the teachings of Prophet Mohammad, but we never love our enemy.<br /><br />Loving your enemies makes them kill you and overtake you.<br /><br />Where would the world be, if we all loved Hitler rather than taking action?<br /><br />Huh?<br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br />Therefore all you have said is false.<br /><br />The people Prophet Mohammad killed were either those who betrayed oaths and took part in conspiracies, those who killed innocent Muslims and persecuted them for a long time or those who oppressed their own people, by beating the poor, the weak, the slaves, forcing women into marriage and sex and much more.<br /><br />Therefore his actions were righteous and neccessary.<br /><br />Mohammad ressurrected the knowledge, the teachings and the monotheism that Moses and Jesus taught in the Bible to idol-worshipers.<br /><br />He taught what they taught, did what they did and guided as they guided.<br /><br />Plus he passed the Prophetic test in 1 John 4:1-3, which was that whoever accepts that Jesus is the Messiah in flesh is a true spirit.<br /><br />In Surah Ale-Imran 3:45 Jesus is called the Messiah of God and therefore Prophet Mohammad accepted that.<br /><br />Therefore he passes the test, he is a Prophet according to the Bible.<br /><br />That is all I can say and end it.<br /><br />Prove me that 1 John 4:1-3 does not prove Mohammad is a Prophet from God Almighty.<br /><br />You can't and you have never touched on that because you fear it the most.', 'xx'),
   

[Pete]

(disappeared then restored manually from database)

Well he is one of the Mightiest Messengers of God.

God chooses people as messengers who are aware of what they do and can easily resist sin.<br /><br />This includes Jesus as well as Prophet Mohammad.

That's preposterous. Even Mohammed's words and deeds are full of hate.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

His words are why Muslims are full of hate today. Especially for Jews.

He plundered caravans and murdered. He was a sexual madman. His imperialistic conquest was the very embodiment of sin. To pretend that Mohammed was anything but sinful is absurd.

That's why the Islamic Mufti of of Jerusalem conspired shoulder to shoulder with Hitler. That's why middle east Muslims hate Jews and want to &quot;drive them into the sea&quot; and murder them down to the last man.

Surah al-Anfal 8:12 is not why Muslims are full of hate today.

The reason Muslims are full of hate today is the injustice done to them by Christians and Zionists.

But even you know this is an invalid and flimsy excuse to deny the second jihad's ambition for global conquest.
How does Zionism explain almost 12,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11? Or two million slain in the Sudan alone. Or: In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one head left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."
"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."
"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, &quot;After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children."

"AP - MOGADISHU, Somalia — Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

Zionists kill innocent Muslims and illegally blockade the Gaza strip. Over 1 000 000 Muslims have been killed by Jewish terrorism ever since Israel formed.

See the pictures of women and children being massacred by Israeli terror attacks. See the pictures of dead and injured victims of Zionist terrorism:

authenticsunnah.org/pali_torture.htm

Americans have killed over 500 000 Iraqi children, and have deformed 1000s of Iraqi children with chemical weapons, that they literally look like aliens;

authenticsunnah.org/iraqi_torture.htm

You can believe your propaganda but the world is witness to the U.S. bringing freedom and the right to self-determination of the Iraqi people. I do understand, however, that few things are more vilified by Islam more than freedom.

See the pictures and you will be horified more than you have ever been at the cruelty of the American terrorists.

That is why Muslims get angry.

They aren't angry. They are just busily conquering the world like their book mandates. You know, "...all the mountaintops..." blah blah blah.

See the real reasons and see how Muslims suffer everyday.

Muslims suffer every day because Islam has removed their interest in striving and being productive citizens of the world economy. They were ruined by Mohammed:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live…The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa…and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.” - by Sir Winston Churchill - The River War, Vol. II, pp. 248-50, London; Longman, Green &amp; Co., 1899

This will change your mind very much and reveal why Muslims get angry and the reasons behind their attacks.

And about Surah al-Anfal 8:12, it only refers to the diebelievers at the Battle of Bedr.<

Allah told us to smite their necks and strike their finger tips.

That's why Islam is the opposite of God's work. 5 centuries before we were instructed:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Sorry my friend. God didn't flip on us.

Striking their finger tips would cripple them and make it easier to attack them and smiting their necks would kill them.

These were disbelievers who tortured and killed so many innocent Muslims from the start of the Message from God Almighty.

Everything has been explained.

Indeed it has. Islam was prophecied in God's Word, long before Mohammed was ever born.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

Everything you said is false.

USA does not bring any freedom to the world. They kill and mutilate so many innocent children in Iraq.

They kill innocent people for fun, but the media hides that.

I am not fooled by any propaganda. It is you who are the fool and your ignorance will cost you your soul for eternity in hell.

What some Muslims do is not what Islam teaches. There are Christians who do the same thing, yet we do not place that all over the media, because we are fair and not unfair like you people.

The west is aiming to destroy Islam so that it can prosper and take control of the land.

Did they find any Nukes in Iraq?

No.

I gave you a link showing so many pictures of innocent children literally mutilated by Americans, yet you have no sympathy or heart.

But our discussion isn't about what secular governments do, is it.

This is what Christianity teaches you.

Will we go to hell?

Why?

Because you deny the Son of God and His shed blood that would have bought you.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, EVEN DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, AND BRING UPON THEMSELVES SWIFT DESTRUCTION.

Most Muslims (not all) pray, ....

Salat is the prayer of the heathen:

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.&nbsp;

...fast, ...

The Muslim pig-out before dawn, drink water all day and pig-out after sunset isn't fasting. That's a diet. Much like the diet I preferred when I worked construction.

....keep away from adultery, ...

What are concubines? How is sex with a concubine not adultery and fornication?
If Muslims don't commit adultery why do Islamic animals stone women for it?



http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm#video

..avoid divorce,....

All a Muslim has to do is say "I divorce you" three times and it is done, under sharia law.
And then from what I understand you believe, it would not be against Allah if that 50 year old, that divorced his wife, went out the same day and took four 9-year olds for his new "wives" if their owners....errrr....parents, approved.

... love our neighbours,...

Perhaps your most preposterous claim yet.

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, "Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him."

...do righteous behavious,...

Sure. Like honor killings. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=islam+honor+killing&amp;search=Search
Like the 12,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11.

You suffer under a preposterous delusion my friend.

....lower our gaze when a woman walks past,..

For what you believe Muslim men shoud be ashamed enough to do that.

... shelter orphans, give charity and love our wives, mothers and children, read the Qur'an.

his is what Jesus taught in the Bible and yet Muslims follow it and not Chrisitians.

Most (not all) Christians never fast, pray, always divorce and commit adultery, perve at women, look at porn, never give alms and do not even read nor look at one word of the Bible.

All you are doing is trying to pretend that western culture = Christianity. Christians tithe (give at least 10%), though tithing is not a Christian concept.
But these are lies you tell yourself to try to make your reprobate prophet look better.
But what does God's Word say?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

We are more Christians than Christians themselves, so why would we ever go to hell.

No question that many that call themselves, and even believe themselves, to be Christians, aren't.
This Paul Washer video should help you understand what a Christian is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ_26AE0G_8

You people will go to hell, according to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-32, for looking at women to lust for them, when you see pornography and all that crap.

Where in God's Word does it instruct Christians to see pornography?

But we avoid that.

And loving your enemies is stupid.

Indeed love in general is a concept that is lost on Islam.

If we love Hitler where would we be?

We would be his slaves today.

We would indeed be the slaves of Hitler and the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZHWhsc7wvg

That's why I believe that coming to the defense of those who cannot defend themselves is a Christian concept. Just like we did in WW2 and in Iraq.

We do pray for those who persecute us in accordance with the teachings of Prophet Mohammad, but we never love our enemy.

And of course, your enemy is the non-Islamic world. The dar el harb.

Loving your enemies makes them kill you and overtake you.

Where would the world be, if we all loved Hitler rather than taking action?

Huh?

Likely under the oppression of Islamic sharia law. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZHWhsc7wvg

Exactly.

Therefore all you have said is false.

It is you who tries to pretend that the bible instructs people to do all the evil things that you list of the secular world. But it doesn't. You are trying to justify the reprobate behavior of Islam and it's prophet by projecting evil onto Christianity.

The people Prophet Mohammad killed were either those who betrayed oaths and took part in conspiracies, ...

Like murdering those in their sleep that wrote and recited poetry that Mohammed didn't like. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=127.0

...those who killed innocent Muslims and persecuted them for a long time or those who oppressed their own people, by beating the poor, the weak, the slaves, forcing women into marriage and sex and much more.

Therefore his actions were righteous and neccessary.

<br /><br />His actions were those of a self-serving reprobate.

Mohammad ressurrected the knowledge, the teachings and the monotheism that Moses and Jesus taught in the Bible to idol-worshipers.

You are pretending that Judaism and Christianity didn't exist.
The false prophet Mohammed created his own stand-alone religion that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that in the record of God's Word.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=111.0

He taught what they taught, did what they did and guided as they guided.

Plus he passed the Prophetic test in 1 John 4:1-3, which was that whoever accepts that Jesus is the Messiah in flesh is a true spirit.

In Surah Ale-Imran 3:45 Jesus is called the Messiah of God and therefore Prophet Mohammad accepted that.

Therefore he passes the test, he is a Prophet according to the Bible.

That is all I can say and end it.

Prove me that 1 John 4:1-3 does not prove Mohammad is a Prophet from God Almighty.

The Word of God isn't about picking those verses that we believe serve our pre-conceived notions and then rejecting those that don't. Within the very same book that you quote we also find:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

This is how we know Islam is antichrist. Words mean things my friend: WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:

You can't and you have never touched on that because you fear it the most.

Don't be silly. Mohammed, as you, deny what the bible is about. You deny the blood that would have bought you.

Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
   

[OneMuslimUmmah]

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

This verse proves we are not anti-Christ.

It says that he who denies the son is anti-Christ.

The son is Jesus and we do not deny him. We accept him as the Messiah is God.

It says who denies the father is anti-Christ.

The father is God and we do not deny God.

If it said: 'He who denies Jesus is the son of God is anti-Christ', we would be classified as anti-Christ, but it says that if we deny the son we are anti-Christ.

Therefore according to this verse we are not anti-Christ.

We will not go to hell for rejecting the false atonement.

We do eat at sunset, after fasting for 14 hours. What are we supposed to do?

Not eat at all and die.

You Christians don't even fast nor pray.

We always keep away from adultery, fornication and prostitution.

Having sex with slave girls is not prostitution. It is temporary marriage, where you marry her for sometime in order to avoid fornication.

The same rules of marriage apply, meaning that we cannot force them into sex.

Jesus did not even say that he who denies that he died for our sins will go to hell.

You will go to hell for worshiping 3 Gods, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

And you never dare to touch on 1 John 4:1-3 which says that he who accepts that Jesus is the Messiah come in flesh is a true Spirit from God.

We accept that and thus go are true spirits from God, according to the Bible test.

And Prophet Mohammad passes this test and is therefore a Prophet from God, according to the Bible.

Your Bible is full of scientific errors and I will give you a few examples:

Bats are birds to the your God (Leviticus 11:13, 19).

Science has proven today that bats are mammals and not birds, because they do not have feathers, have fur and do not lay eggs.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS PILLARS (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6).

The Bible says the EARTH IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED (Psalm 93:1, 1 Chronicals 16:30).

The Bible says that the EARTH IS FIXED AND THE SUN TRAVELS AROUND IT (Job 9:7).

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS FOUR CORNERS (Revelation 7:1)

These are sufficient proof that the Bible is not the word of God.

Answer these if your religion is true and your Bible is the word of God.

[Pete]

We will not go to hell for rejecting the false atonement.

What you mean is you wish God is whatever you and Mohammed could imagine Him to be.

I have to rely on God's Word:

Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION.


Old Testament or New, remission of sin is through blood. NO BLOOD NO REMISSION.
You will die wallowing in your sins.
Once you arrive in hell there is NO COMMUTING to heaven:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#heaven

[Kathleen]

(Post disappeared and restored manually from database)

What is a mistake and a sin to Muslims?

So after hundreds of years, Muhammed just copied the ‘scientific errors’ from the bible?

Earth is fixed. 27:61
Sun travels around it. 13:2
Then you have your sun setting in muddy spring. 18:86, 90
Plus:
Sun floats.. The moon has it’s own light…Woman has baby in her belly, not in the womb.. etc.

So now both the bible and the quran have the ‘scientific errors’.
But the truth is, when someone speaks and writes, his words give its own impressions. There are no scientific errors here at all.

God hates divorce but allowed it because of heartless men (women). How do you avoid divorce? Is it by beating women into submission to maintain a happy marriage?
You allowed temporary marriage, for the sake of sex, divorce later. Talk about Muta or Mutah -whatever term that is- the marriage for one hour.
Marriage is not for the flesh. Having a concubine is committing adultery. Polygamy is stupid not Love your Enemies.
Know what love is so you can love your enemies. Jesus is love.
Know Christ first, then you can tell who and who’s not a follower of Christ.

Islam is anti-christ. It denies Jesus as the Son of God.
   

[Pete]

(Post disappeared and restored manually from database)

What is a mistake and a sin to Muslims?

So after hundreds of years, Muhammed just copied the ‘scientific errors’ from the bible?

Earth is fixed. 27:61

Hi Kathleen and welcome to the forum!!! How did you find us?

Indeed Mohammed not only had a flat earth, but his god used the mountains to balance it out and keep it from tipping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGEFo5qkXkU

Ahmed's Quran are roughly organized by category here. A lot of interesting stuff from the Quran and hadith:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_play_list?user=brotherjw
   

[OneMuslimUmmah]

What is a mistake and a sin to Muslims?

So after hundreds of years, Muhammed just copied the ‘scientific errors’ from the bible?

Earth is fixed. 27:61 Sun travels around it. 13:2 Then you have your sun setting in muddy spring. 18:86, 90 Plus: Sun floats.. The moon has it’s own light…Woman has baby in her belly, not in the womb.. etc.

So now both the bible and the quran have the ‘scientific errors’.
But the truth is, when someone speaks and writes, his words give its own impressions. There are no scientific errors here at all.

God hates divorce but allowed it because of heartless men (women). How do you avoid divorce? Is it by beating women into submission to maintain a happy marriage?
You allowed temporary marriage, for the sake of sex, divorce later. Talk about Muta or Mutah -whatever term that is- the marriage for one hour.
Marriage is not for the flesh. Having a concubine is committing adultery. Polygamy is stupid not Love your Enemies.
Know what love is so you can love your enemies. Jesus is love.
Know Christ first, then you can tell who and who’s not a follower of Christ.

Islam is anti-christ. It denies Jesus as the Son of God.

(Mis)Quoting places from the Noble Qur'an does not answer my questions (though I will debunk all your false allegations).

Answer these errors in your Satanic Bible first and lie about the Noble Qur'an later, friend:

Bats are birds to the your God (Leviticus 11:13, 19).

Science has proven today that bats are mammals and not birds, because they do not have feathers, have fur and do not lay eggs.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS PILLARS (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6).

The Bible says the EARTH IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED (Psalm 93:1, 1 Chronicals 16:30).

The Bible says that the EARTH IS FIXED AND THE SUN TRAVELS AROUND IT (Job 9:7).

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS FOUR CORNERS (Revelation 7:1)

Now on to debunk the allegations against the Noble Qur'an.

Surah an-Naml 27:61

  ?? ?? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ??

Or, Who made the earth a resting place, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

It says the Earth is a resting place, not that the Earth is fixed. The Arabic word in this word has 3 meanings:

fixed
habitable
resting place/place of rest

Some people translate it incorrectly and so there is no error here.

Surah ar-Ra'ad 13:2:

Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.

This Noble verse says that each one pursues its own course and has its own job.

The sun spins on its own axis and that is its course.

The moon spins on its own axis, revolves around the earth and thus revolves around the sun.

That is their courses.

It does not say the sun spins around the Earth.

Surah al-Kahf 18:86, 90:

Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people.

He found the sun setting in a black sea.

It was what he saw.

It was a figment of his imagination and the sun looks as if it sets in water when you go by a sea-side at sun-set.

Surah al-Kahf 18:90:

Until he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom WE had made no shelter against it.

He found the sun rising.

It was what he saw and thought.

Same answer.

What about your God-Man Jesus: "God makes the sun rise on the good and the bad..." (Matthew 5:45).

Does the sun rise on the good and the bad?

No.

Because the sun does not rise, but the Earth spins and thus the sun looks as if it is rising.

Your God-Man must not have known that, although he created them according to you.

And Islam is not anti-Christ.

We are pro-Christ and you are anti-Christ.

You are duped by Satan's magic and will follow the anti-Christ, mistaking him for Jesus.

We Muslims will however follow the true Messiah, Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him).

"He who denieth the father and the son is anti-Christ" (1 John 2:22-23).

The father is God and the Son is Jesus.

So to put in simpler terms:

"He who denieth God and Jesus is anti-Christ"

We do not deny God nor Jesus.

We accept both and revere our creator.

We accept Jesus as the Messiah of God.

And no Christians ever answer me:

1 John 4:2:"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus is the Christ who has come in the flesh is from God..."

Surah Ale-Imran 3:45 says that Jesus is the Messiah and therefore we pass the test as spirits of God.

We Muslims and our Prophet are spirits of God according to your Bible.

We pass the test.

We have the truth and you don't.

May God bless Jesus and his brother Mohammad.
   

[Pete]

And Mohammed's flat earth, with mountains used as balances to keep it from tipping.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=765CB4B6FB516894

[OneMuslimUmmah]

And Mohammed's flat earth, with mountains used as balances to keep it from tipping.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=765CB4B6FB516894

If that's all you have than that is very lowly of you.

Firstly I can (and will) easily disprove lies about Prophet Mohammad saying the earth is flat.

Secondly you did not answer one of my claims against the Bible.

Thirdly you posted a link instead of answering me yourself.

Here are my claims against the Bible (additions included):

Bats are birds to the your God (Leviticus 11:13, 19).

Science has proven today that bats are mammals and not birds, because they do not have feathers, have fur and do not lay eggs.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS PILLARS (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6).

The Bible says the EARTH IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED (Psalm 93:1, 1 Chronicals 16:30).

The Bible says that the EARTH IS FIXED AND THE SUN TRAVELS AROUND IT (Job 9:7).

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS FOUR CORNERS (Revelation 7:1)

The Bible says that GOD RODE ON A CHERUB (a winged creature) (2 Samuel 22:11)

Jesus says in the Bible that the moon will stop giving its light (Matthew 24:29)

Firstly the moon does not have its own light and reflects light from the sun and secondly the moon never gave light so how could it stop giving light.

Now about the Qur'an.

All verses posted by that deceiver said that God spread out the Earth/stretched out the Earth.

The Arabic word for Earth used is al-Arda, which also refers to land masses and not the Earth as a whole.

Therefore spreading and stretching refers to continental drift and not to flat-World theories.

About mountains stopping the Earth from shaking: What the Qur'an is saying is that mountains stop Earthquakes which is a scientific theory (

What he (the youtube dude) quoted (and falsely interpreted) in the Noble Qur'an are simply scientific facts.

[OneMuslimUmmah]

You have to answer this, mate:

According to the Bible, I am born of God, as are all Muslims and as is Prophet Mohammad:

1 John 5:1:

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) is born of God..."

I believe Jesus is the Messiah and the Qur'an testifies that Jesus is the Messiah (Surah Ale-Imran 3:45).

We Muslims and our Prophet believe the Qur'an to be the literal word of God and therefore we believe and testify that Jesus is the Messiah.

Therefore according to the Bible we born of God.

If we are born of God, will we go to hell?

I say that I am not born of God, so does that mean I lied?

If I lied, tell me, can a person born of God lie?

If I didn't lie the Bible is lying?

Then it is not the word of God.

[Pete]

You have to answer this, mate:

According to the Bible, I am born of God, as are all Muslims and as is Prophet Mohammad:

1 John 5:1:

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) is born of God..."

Let's at least finish the verse:

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So are you saying that you loveth God that begat Jesus and Jesus that was begotten of God?

Four verses later we read:  http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm#1_john_5

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So do you believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God?
Next we read:

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.    
1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It's about the doctrine of Christ onemuslim:

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

You were probably deceived by Ahmed Deedat who liked to cut and create little verse snippets to pretend that Islam is something other than it is. The OPPOSITE of Christianity. Something other than antichrist.

him that begat
New Testament Greek Definition:
1080 gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
from a variation of 1085; TDNT - 1:665,114; v
AV - begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1,
be delivered 1, misc 3; 97
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his
way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work


that is begotten
New Testament Greek Definition:
1080 gennao {ghen-nah'-o}

I believe Jesus is the Messiah and the Qur'an testifies that Jesus is the Messiah (Surah Ale-Imran 3:45).

We Muslims and our Prophet....

Doesn't that singular individual ever look lonely to you? Particularly since Mohammed's 7th century 23 year record not only contradicts itself,  http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0 but also contradicts the prophets of the bible and the 1600 year record God gave us? You see that's why the bible is so heavily witnessed:

2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Not a single word out of Mohammed's mouth has been established. Indeed this is why:

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

No shortage of false prophets among God's people too. However all of them (I think) would confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died on the Cross and was resurrected.  http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#cults

That's what makes Mohammed unique, and little doubt THE false prophet of the book of Revelation. The greatest deceiver. Mohammed's book teaches THE DIRECT OPPOSITE of God's Word. Islam is antichrist. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contents_tfp.htm

... believe the Qur'an to be the literal word of God and therefore we believe and testify that Jesus is the Messiah.

Therefore according to the Bible we born of God.

If we are born of God, will we go to hell?

I say that I am not born of God, so does that mean I lied?

If I lied, tell me, can a person born of God lie?

If I didn't lie the Bible is lying?

Then it is not the word of God.

Who is a liar? You repeatedly say it's God's Word. But what does God's Word say?

1Jo 5:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave of his Son.

Just two verses later:

1Jo 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 John 2:22  WHO IS A LIAR but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

You can study the Gospel of John and his epistles here:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/index.htm#gospel_of_john
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/second_epistle_john.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/third_epistle_john.htm

[Pete]

And Mohammed's flat earth, with mountains used as balances to keep it from tipping.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=765CB4B6FB516894

If that's all you have than that is very lowly of you.

Firstly I can (and will) easily disprove lies about Prophet Mohammad saying the earth is flat.

Secondly you did not answer one of my claims against the Bible.

It wasn't my post. I thought she might follow up. I just piled on with the YouTubes FROM THE HADITH. I shouldn't have. I don't want you to get distracted by unimportant fringe discussions.

The post immediately above is a matter of life or death.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

Thirdly you posted a link instead of answering me yourself.

Here are my claims against the Bible (additions included):

Bats are birds to the your God (Leviticus 11:13, 19).

Science has proven today that bats are mammals and not birds, because they do not have feathers, have fur and do not lay eggs.

Sometimes God's Word takes a little effort in study of translation:

Leviticus 11:13 And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

  the fowls
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05775 `owph {ofe}
from 05774; TWOT - 1582a; n m
AV - fowl 59, bird 9, flying 2, flieth 1; 71
1) flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds
1a) fowl, birds
1b) winged insects

Here we can see that the Hebrew term 'owph translated as "fowls" is so broad that it can even refer to winged insects. In two other places this word is translated as "flying". Consider it more generally like: "...ye shall have in abomination among the flying; they shall not be eaten..."

But you would likely prefer to pretend you can make God a liar, just like you prefer to make Jesus Christ a liar regarding His shed blood that would save you. All because of a 6th century false prophet and those like Deedat that promote that evil.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS PILLARS (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6).

The bible also says the earth has foundations. Does that mean concrete block or poured? Reinforced with steel? Or do we understand it metaphorically. Like the earth was founded. Like pillars are the supporting structures of the earth like atmosphere, oceans and the like.

When you talk about the 5 "pillars" of Islam, are they made of plaster, concrete or stone?

The Bible says the EARTH IS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED (Psalm 93:1, 1 Chronicals 16:30).

Indeed it is. Does the earth wander around the universe? No. It's rotation doesn't change, it's orbit is cyclical, summer follows winter with the tilt, etc. These things don't change appreciably, and if they do it is cyclical.

The Bible says that the EARTH IS FIXED AND THE SUN TRAVELS AROUND IT (Job 9:7).

Is that really what it says or are you creating your own verse like Ahmed Deedat used to do, before he was silenced for the last 9 years of his life?

Job 9:5  5  Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.    6  Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.    7  Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.    8  Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

A lot of the Hebrew portion of God's Word is written poetically. You can see the passage is full of figurative language and metaphors.
When you look out in the morning do you say "What a beautiful earth spin we have this morning!". Unless you are some kind of nutjob you say "What a beautiful sun rise we have this morning".
What you are doing is, very transparently, everything in your power, to make God a liar. Just like Mohammed did.

The Bible says that the EARTH HAS FOUR CORNERS (Revelation 7:1)

We use the same expression today. Scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. This is a reference to ALL directions. North, South, East and West. This is supported by reference to the 4 winds, in the same verse. Do you really think that the wind only blew from strictly 4 directions back then? No.

More importantly, the book of Revelation, after the third chapter is a prophetic VISION. All visions and dreams in God's Word use figurative language. Generally the interpretation of the terms can be found with careful hermeneutic study. You can readily see that the verse you refer to include four angels, standing on the four corners.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

For example does this seem to describe a literal beast?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The Bible says that GOD RODE ON A CHERUB (a winged creature) (2 Samuel 22:11)

Is that all it says?

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

You can add to your list that the bible says that the wind has wings too.
Do you see what you are doing yet? Read the whole passage: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Sa&c=22&v=1&t=KJV#top

Jesus says in the Bible that the moon will stop giving its light (Matthew 24:29)

Firstly the moon does not have its own light and reflects light from the sun and secondly the moon never gave light so how could it stop giving light.

I devoted a considerable amount of time to this very interesting passage, being driven by Christian chat rooms.
I believe that the moon in this passage is the church, because it reflects the light of the SON.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Matthew 24:29 is perfectly placed within it's passage to describe the latter days apostasy that we also read about the 2 Thess.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..."
Falling away is translated from the Greek word for apostasy.
Also consistent with the timing of the 6th seal that comes immediately before the end:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_29

The Olivet Discourse is a mini-picture that Jesus paints of the whole Christian era.

Now about the Qur'an.

All verses posted by that deceiver said that God spread out the Earth/stretched out the Earth.

The Arabic word for Earth used is al-Arda, which also refers to land masses and not the Earth as a whole.

Therefore spreading and stretching refers to continental drift and not to flat-World theories.

About mountains stopping the Earth from shaking: What the Qur'an is saying is that mountains stop Earthquakes which is a scientific theory (

What he (the youtube dude) quoted (and falsely interpreted) in the Noble Qur'an are simply scientific facts.

You are running and hiding from the truth of God's Word by trying to get lost in the details. Please ignore this post. I almost didn't write it because I didn't want you to miss the prior post. IT IS A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH - ETERNALLY.

Your understanding will only come after you ask Jesus for help and TRY TO UNDERSTAND rather than trying to make God out to be a liar. It is Mohammed that is the liar. Here is why you can't understand the things of the Spirit of God:

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[OneMuslimUmmah]

My responses are in red:

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So are you saying that you loveth God that begat Jesus and Jesus that was begotten of God?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that I love God. I never said Jesus is the begotten son of God.

This verse says that he who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and everyone that loves him that begat also loves him that is begotten.

Him that begat refers to God and him that is begotten refers to Christ.

In other words this verse is saying:

Everyone that loves God loves Christ.

I love God and Christ and believe that he s the Messiah.

Therefore I am born of God according to this verse.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Read the context of this chapter:

Matthew 24:3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So in Matthew 24:11 Jesus is telling them one of the many signs of the end of the world and his own second coming.

Therefore it does not refer to Prophet Mohammad, as it has been 1400 years since his arrival and Jesus has not come again, nor has the world ended.

That's what makes Mohammed unique, and little doubt THE false prophet of the book of Revelation. The greatest deceiver. Mohammed's book teaches THE DIRECT OPPOSITE of God's Word. Islam is antichrist.

The Book of revelation talks about the end of times. It has been 1400 years and the end of times have not come.

The real greatest deciever is Paul, whom you follow.

Our Prophet is a true Prophet according to 1 John 4:2, as he confessed that Jesus was the Christ.

So why don't you ever address that.

And Islam is not anti-Christ.

You are anti-Christ.

We are pro-Christ.

Christ is our leader and our Prophet, nor yours.

Your leader is the anti-Christ ad-Dajjal.

It is not the direct opposite of God's word because the Bible is not God's word.

It is man's word, and is full of errors which you stupidly address.

Sometimes God's Word takes a little effort in study of translation:

Leviticus 11:13 And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

  the fowls
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05775 `owph {ofe}
from 05774; TWOT - 1582a; n m
AV - fowl 59, bird 9, flying 2, flieth 1; 71
1) flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds
1a) fowl, birds
1b) winged insects

Here we can see that the Hebrew term 'owph translated as "fowls" is so broad that it can even refer to winged insects. In two other places this word is translated as "flying". Consider it more generally like: "...ye shall have in abomination among the flying; they shall not be eaten..."

I agree with you there.

You explained that pretty well, but that is the only one you explained properly and gave stupid explanations of the other verses, as I will prove shortly.

Like pillars are the supporting structures of the earth like atmosphere, oceans and the like.

When you talk about the 5 "pillars" of Islam, are they made of plaster, concrete or stone?

Pillars are not supporting structures such as the atmosphere, oceans etc...

Because the Bible says:

Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. (Job 9:6).

Does the atmosphere tremble?

No it doesn't. and neither do the oceans.

Therefore it does not refer to oceans and mountains etc...

And why would God use metaphorical language.

Isn't that confusing?

Yes.

But:

"For God is not the author of confusion..." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Bible is very confusing though.

The pillars of Islam are the 5 teachings of Islam. They are called pillars because they support the religion of Islam, just as pillars support the foundations of a building.

That is simple to understand, unlike Job 9:6.

Indeed it is. Does the earth wander around the universe? No. It's rotation doesn't change, it's orbit is cyclical, summer follows winter with the tilt, etc. These things don't change appreciably, and if they do it is cyclical.

Firmly established does not mean it has a fixed cycle etc...

Firmly established means that it does not move.

It means that it is established in a firm position.

In the start of the verse it says that the Earth cannot be moved, and in the end it says it is firmly established.

And even if it spoke of its rotation it would not make a difference, because men can easily change its revolution around the sun.

Today nukes are hard enough that they can just hit the Earth so hard, that it will fly out of its orbit, and either fall into the sun or fly our away from the sun.

In either case the Bible is scientifically incoherent.

Is that really what it says or are you creating your own verse like Ahmed Deedat used to do, before he was silenced for the last 9 years of his life?

Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. (Job 9:7)

So in other words this verse is saying when God commands the sun not to rise, it does not do so.

What this is implying is that the sun does rise in its normal basis, meaning it revolves around the Earth, and does not rise when God commands it not to.

That is false because the sun does not rise at all, and therefore the Bible is incoherent.

And yes Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (RA) was silenced by God for 9 years, because God love him and wanted him to learn spiritually and silently rather than teaching.

He wanted the Sheikh to be more spiritual by being silenced.

That would make him wiser and closer to God.

If you think that the Christian God silenced him, then you must also think that the Christian God is very stupid for silencing him at a time when all his works were published and all his life had been used to defend Islam rather than silencing him in the start.

We use the same expression today. Scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. This is a reference to ALL directions. North, South, East and West. This is supported by reference to the 4 winds, in the same verse. Do you really think that the wind only blew from strictly 4 directions back then? No.

More importantly, the book of Revelation, after the third chapter is a prophetic VISION. All visions and dreams in God's Word use figurative language. Generally the interpretation of the terms can be found with careful hermeneutic study. You can readily see that the verse you refer to include four angels, standing on the four corners.

Were this the case the Bible would say six corners.

Because by saying North, South, East and West, it excludes front and back, which alludes a 2D figure of the Earth.

Therefore it is still incoherent.

And why does figurative language have to be used.

God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), but figurative language is very confusing.

Therefore, whether Revelation 7:1, is figurative or literal, it is incoherent.

I believe that the moon in this passage (Matthew 24:29) is the church, because it reflects the light of the SON.

I do not care what you believe.

I want facts and the beliefs of Bible scholars, rather than normal people like yourself.

Would it be fair for me to interpret the Qur'an in the way that I wish?

For example, where it says "kill the idolaters wherever you may find them" (Surah at-Tawba 9:5), could I say:

Kill means to kill their disbelief.

No. I would answer it by showing the context of the verse, by showing what the next verse says. You cannot answer me by saying what you believe and neither can I.

It says "moon" not "Church".

And in the case of the Qur'an it says "kill", not "kill their disbelief".

Don't answer me by saying what you believe, or I could do the same and answer any attack on Islam, by making false interpretations of my own.

If it meant the Church, Jesus would say the Church.

But he didn't.

If he meant it then he is confusing the listeners by alluding to the moon, without telling what he really means and that is confusing.

But God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Again a major scientific error exists in Matthew 24:29.

Also in Matthew 24:34, Jesus says that all of this (what he said, about the false Prophets coming, people fighting each other and the world ending would come before THIS GENERATION passes.

But it did not happen, and therefore that is a false Prophecy in the Bible.

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

You can add to your list that the bible says that the wind has wings too.

Yes I can.

But I am not stupid.

If it is symbolic, tell me what 2 Samuel 22:11, symbolises.

And if it is symbolic then it is confusing, but God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

So it is either a contradiction or a general error.

Either way it is not the word of God.

Most of your defense was stupid, except Leviticus 11:13, and therefore the Bible is still not the word of God, because of the errors.

[Pete]

My responses are in red:

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So are you saying that you loveth God that begat Jesus and Jesus that was begotten of God?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that I love God. I never said Jesus is the begotten son of God.

This verse says that he who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and everyone that loves him that begat also loves him that is begotten.

Him that begat refers to God and him that is begotten refers to Christ.

In other words this verse is saying:

Everyone that loves God loves Christ.

I love God and Christ and believe that he s the Messiah.

Therefore I am born of God according to this verse.

That's wonderful news. Rejecting the Quran.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

By the way. To quote me you can hit the "quote" button. Then copy the
[ quote author=Pete link=topic=128.msg489#msg489 date=1224565692 ]
from the upper left corner, and paste it next to the
[ /quote ]
at the end of the text. Then anywhere you want to break and put in your comment, copy the two of them together
[ /quote ][ quote author=Pete link=topic=128.msg489#msg489 date=1224565692 ]
paste them where you want the break, then type in between them.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Read the context of this chapter:

Matthew 24:3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So in Matthew 24:11 Jesus is telling them one of the many signs of the end of the world and his own second coming.

Therefore it does not refer to Prophet Mohammad, as it has been 1400 years since his arrival and Jesus has not come again, nor has the world ended.

False prophets have been around since the first century, just as has false doctrine. The second and third chapter of Revelation talk about heresy in the church even by 95 AD. Gnosticism was born in the first century before the last prophet John died. Likely the Lord kept John around long enough so he could see these heresies first-hand and write about them.

And it's not the only context that mentions false prophets. Here's one from their day:

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name [was] Barjesus:

Here's some from later on:

Mohammed - Islam
Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
William Miller - Millerites associated into SDA
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism (Dr. Harry Ironside on futurism)

The 19th century also brought us a corrupt Greek text written by two spiritualists:
Westcott and Hort - wrote corrupt 19th century minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.

Also brought us the famed satanist:
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort

That's what makes Mohammed unique, and little doubt THE false prophet of the book of Revelation. The greatest deceiver. Mohammed's book teaches THE DIRECT OPPOSITE of God's Word. Islam is antichrist.

The Book of revelation talks about the end of times. It has been 1400 years and the end of times have not come.

The real greatest deciever is Paul, whom you follow.

Paul was one of the biggest persecutors of Christians, before he came to the Lord and became one of the greatest apostles. It was in Rome that the apostle Paul suffered martyrdom by order of the Emperor Nero - Paul was beheaded with a sword.

Our Prophet is a true Prophet according to 1 John 4:2, as he confessed that Jesus was the Christ.

So why don't you ever address that.

Because that is only PART of the test. You are only peeking at what you THINK serves Mohammed. But it disasterously DOES NOT:

Mohammed isn't even here to TRY his Spirit. The verse isn't about a question and answer period with a person. When a person talks in a tongue, for example, we are obligated to "try THE SPIRIT" NOT THE PERSON. It is about finding out whether the Spirit the person is engaged with is clean or unclean.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try THE SPIRITS whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And EVERY SPIRIT that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is THAT [SPIRIT] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You have probably seen stuff about Tod Bentley's healing ministry by now. Did anybody ever try the spirit that is working through him? No. His ministry is collapsed now. He even admitted to visitations by a 9' tall angel named Emma. Some Pentecostal churches are given over to unclean spirits because they fail to "try the spirits".

This YouTube starts out comically (tragically), but ends even more tragically:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW06j1iV08E&feature=PlayList&p=852EC7299CE48699&index=4

I won't judge this one but have my suspicions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6keUIE2WM&feature=PlayList&p=852EC7299CE48699&index=8

And Islam is not anti-Christ.

This isn't about an opinion. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God or not? Do you believe in the doctrine of Christ? Do you believe the record that God gave us of His Son?

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

You are anti-Christ.

But these are just your empty words.
What verse condemns me as an antichrist, the way God's Word condemns you? Here are all the verses that contain the term:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm

I proved you are antichrist with the Word of God. Do you have the Son of God?

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That God sent a part of Himself to be born of a virgin to become the perfect example to mankind and the perfect sacrifice for the remission of sin of all that believe in Him.
I am IN Christ and He is IN me through the Holy Ghost.
My body is the temple of the living God.

It's so sad. You even believe that God put Jesus in the virgin Mary, yet reject that Jesus is God's Son.

We are pro-Christ.

Christ is our leader and our Prophet, nor yours.

Here's what your prophet Jesus said: Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

Sorry. Mohammed is the prophet of Mohammedanism. THE OPPOSITE of Jesus Christ in every way. Pillaging, plundering, murdering, sexually enslaving, screwing a 9 year old. Polygamist with what, 26 wives? Plus concubines? Talk about fornication. Add to that murder and bloody imperialistic conquest, but with the cowardice of sending others into battle with his sword while he sat on a distant hill and watched with body guards (from the hadith). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1MiLqH0jc
That's some "prophet" to behold.

Here is what your false prophet said of Jesus' blood:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Your leader is the anti-Christ ad-Dajjal.

So you are saying that Jesus Christ - the head of my church - is antichrist?
Do you think before you write?

It is not the direct opposite of God's word because the Bible is not God's word.

Even if you wanted to pretend that the bible was not the inerrant Word of God, what are the odds that a single 6th century prophet, would not only differ from the 1600 year record that God gave us through His Word, but be THE EXACT OPPOSITE?

Muslims are the OPPOSITE of Christians.
Christians confess the Son of God.
The most important fundamental in Islam includes rejecting the Son of God.
Christians are washed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Muslims reject the blood that would save them.
Jesus' life, crucifixion and resurrection is what God's Word is about.
We follow the 1600 year revelation of God to mankind in His word. You follow the 23 year record of Mohammed.

Christians well understand we are to expect a manifestation of the opposite. We are to expect that spirit of antichrist to become very powerful. Today there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone. That number doesn't even count the atheists.

We are to expect an end-time kingdom "beast" that is antichrist: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0
That occupies the same seat as Daniel's lion, bear and leopard beasts. Satan gave Islam his seat, power and authority:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Just look at the fruit. A good tree cannot produce evil fruit. Over 12,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

It is man's word, and is full of errors which you stupidly address.[/color]

Sometimes God's Word takes a little effort in study of translation:

Leviticus 11:13 And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

  the fowls
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05775 `owph {ofe}
from 05774; TWOT - 1582a; n m
AV - fowl 59, bird 9, flying 2, flieth 1; 71
1) flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds
1a) fowl, birds
1b) winged insects

Here we can see that the Hebrew term 'owph translated as "fowls" is so broad that it can even refer to winged insects. In two other places this word is translated as "flying". Consider it more generally like: "...ye shall have in abomination among the flying; they shall not be eaten..."

I agree with you there.

You explained that pretty well, but that is the only one you explained properly and gave stupid explanations of the other verses, as I will prove shortly.

[Pete]

Like pillars are the supporting structures of the earth like atmosphere, oceans and the like.

When you talk about the 5 "pillars" of Islam, are they made of plaster, concrete or stone?

Pillars are not supporting structures such as the atmosphere, oceans etc...

But pillars are supporting structures, like the pillars of Islam. The oceans support the rains, that support the plants that produce oxygen that supports....

Because the Bible says:

Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. (Job 9:6).

Does the atmosphere tremble?

No it doesn't. and neither do the oceans.

Did the earth shaketh out of her place? No. The earth is firmly established. Could God shake the earth out of her place? Of course.

Therefore it does not refer to oceans and mountains etc...

And why would God use metaphorical language.

So that one had to be regenerate to understand much of it. That's why those coming to Christ generally find Him first, in the clarity of the Gospels. The story of Jesus life, ministry, crucifixion, death and resurrection.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Isn't that confusing?

It requires study. Milk before meat.

1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

Start with the Gospel of John or Mark, not Revelation.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Yes.

But:

"For God is not the author of confusion..." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Bible is very confusing though.

The pillars of Islam are the 5 teachings of Islam. They are called pillars because they support the religion of Islam, just as pillars support the foundations of a building.

That is simple to understand, unlike Job 9:6.[/color]

Indeed it is. Does the earth wander around the universe? No. It's rotation doesn't change, it's orbit is cyclical, summer follows winter with the tilt, etc. These things don't change appreciably, and if they do it is cyclical.

Firmly established does not mean it has a fixed cycle etc...

Firmly established means that it does not move.

It means that it is established in a firm position.

That's what you want it to believe because you want God to lie.
Earth's rotation is established. It's orbit is established. It's seasonal tilt is established. You cannot deny that yet you persist.

In the start of the verse it says that the Earth cannot be moved, and in the end it says it is firmly established.

And even if it spoke of its rotation it would not make a difference, because men can easily change its revolution around the sun.

Today nukes are hard enough that they can just hit the Earth so hard, that it will fly out of its orbit, and either fall into the sun or fly our away from the sun.

That's preposterous. You could detonate all of the nukes on earth, in one location, and it wouldn't budge the earth.
But even if men could, it wouldn't change that the earth was ESTABLISHED in the way that God established it. If it becomes His will to change it He will. And I believe he will.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

That word translated as "elements" means elemental principles.

In either case the Bible is scientifically incoherent.[/color]

Many even Christians say that the entire book of Revelation is incoherent, because they don't put any effort into understanding. They start with presumptions they have drawn from the rest of scripture. But the book of Revelation is just that. It's better to take it on it's own merit, using the rest of the bible to define the terms, and from where we stand in history look backwards through scripture through the book of revelation. Here's how Isaac Newton described our times:

"This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:.... All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."
(Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)

Indeed, from where we stand in history, we find that virtually all of the prophecy of the book of Revelation is fulfilled through the now-healed beast of Islam.

Is that really what it says or are you creating your own verse like Ahmed Deedat used to do, before he was silenced for the last 9 years of his life?

Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. (Job 9:7)

So in other words this verse is saying when God commands the sun not to rise, it does not do so.

What this is implying is that the sun does rise in its normal basis, meaning it revolves around the Earth, and does not rise when God commands it not to.

But you belief is purely grounded in your desire to blaspheme God's Word, purely because it doesn't fit Mohammed's word.
Do you use the term sunrise or not? When you do are you "implying" that the earth does not spin?

That is false because the sun does not rise at all, and therefore the Bible is incoherent.

And yes Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (RA) was silenced by God for 9 years, because God love him and wanted him to learn spiritually and silently rather than teaching.

He wanted the Sheikh to be more spiritual by being silenced.

That would make him wiser and closer to God.

It could have simply been a stroke, but I doubt it:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=119.0

If you think that the Christian God silenced him, then you must also think that the Christian God is very stupid for silencing him at a time when all his works were published and all his life had been used to defend Islam rather than silencing him in the start.[/color]

Not at all. God demonstrates His power when He will.
The bible tells us that there were many antichrists even as John wrote the book of Revelation in 95 AD.
Deedat was just another antichrist.
It is up to the individual to discern these things.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

God didn't promise He would make it easy, but it is SO easy through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost.

We use the same expression today. Scattered to the 4 corners of the earth. This is a reference to ALL directions. North, South, East and West. This is supported by reference to the 4 winds, in the same verse. Do you really think that the wind only blew from strictly 4 directions back then? No.

More importantly, the book of Revelation, after the third chapter is a prophetic VISION. All visions and dreams in God's Word use figurative language. Generally the interpretation of the terms can be found with careful hermeneutic study. You can readily see that the verse you refer to include four angels, standing on the four corners.

Were this the case the Bible would say six corners.

Because by saying North, South, East and West, it excludes front and back, which alludes a 2D figure of the Earth.

Do you see the lengths you go to?
What part in navigation of a boat for example includes a front and back?
Even your preposterous supposition is wrong.
If you wanted to include two more dimensions it would be top and bottom, depending on the stance of the person.
Your wheels are spinning off.
You never heard the expression 4 corners of the earth?

Therefore it is still incoherent.

And why does figurative language have to be used.

So that only those that ask God for help through the God's Spirit can understand it. I showed you before that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Here is the reason for parables, for example:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

You have to throw yourself at the feet of Jesus Christ and repent, and be washed by His blood, before you can understand the things of the Spirit of God.
You have to try to understand, not put your effort into MISunderstanding.
BUT FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE SAVED, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), but figurative language is very confusing.

It's certainly not the stuff of a low IQ, 6th century, bedowin mentality, illiterate.

Therefore, whether Revelation 7:1, is figurative or literal, it is incoherent.[/color]

I believe that the moon in this passage (Matthew 24:29) is the church, because it reflects the light of the SON.

I do not care what you believe.

I want facts and the beliefs of Bible scholars, rather than normal people like yourself.

But bible scholars are in the same predicament that the Pharisees were:
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

When it comes to end-time prophecy and figurative language they walk in the doctrines of men, not the Word of God. They reject the Word of God for many of those doctrines. But the bible explains itself. There are many areas of broad agreement. For example if you Yahoo even in quotes "babylon, medo-persia, greece" you will find about 20,000 hits that agree that these are the identities of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard beasts. Then when we see them in Revelation 13 we can understand that the seats of those beasts are today, Iraq, Iran and Syria/Lebanon. The seat of the leopard-bear-lion composite end-time beast - Islam.

Even though there is broad agreement regarding Daniel's beasts, most then diverge and believe that John's "beast" of Rev 13 is some individual future boogeyman, with NO SCRIPTURAL support whatsoever.

However Daniel provides a major key to the book of Revelation. Please read the following link and see if it makes sense:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/daniels_four_beasts.htm

Would it be fair for me to interpret the Qur'an in the way that I wish?

For example, where it says "kill the idolaters wherever you may find them" (Surah at-Tawba 9:5), could I say:[/color]

Kill means to kill their disbelief.

No. I would answer it by showing the context of the verse, by showing what the next verse says. You cannot answer me by saying what you believe and neither can I.

You point out another excellent and frequently occurring opposite of Islam. Jesus said:

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Islam points out so well that generally the filthy reproabte men that consider themselves to be in positions of judgment of others, are FAR WORSE than those that they pass judgment against.
Sharia law is the opposite of the new covenant through Jesus Christ.
It is also contrary to norms of human decency.
Sharia law is the filth of satan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw

It says "moon" not "Church".

Does a scarlet beast with a harlot on it's back with 7 heads and 10 horns refer to any beast you know of?

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And it says stars will fall from heaven. Is that what it means? Did you read the link?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_29

How can a star fall from heaven? Well what might a star be?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The word anglos translated as angels means messenger. Can a messenger fall from heaven? What about Baker, Swaggart?
I believe that section is about the apostasy. If you read the link you will see how these conclusions are drawn through scriptural definitions. It is ONE LARGE PICTURE. You could not understand it through bits and pieces.

From the same verse, what do we see might a candlestick stand for?

And in the case of the Qur'an it says "kill", not "kill their disbelief".

Don't answer me by saying what you believe, or I could do the same and answer any attack on Islam, by making false interpretations of my own.

I say "I believe" because while some passages of scripture are not open to interpretation, like Jesus crucifixion, death and resurrection, other passages are WIDELY open to interpretation. That's is how traditions of men have divided the church into a few thousand denominations.

The last thing you would find me saying is "well the pope says", yet many believe him to be the head of the church. It's tragic because Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

If it meant the Church, Jesus would say the Church.

But he didn't.

If he meant it then he is confusing the listeners by alluding to the moon, without telling what he really means and that is confusing.

But God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Again a major scientific error exists in Matthew 24:29.

Also in Matthew 24:34, Jesus says that all of this (what he said, about the false Prophets coming, people fighting each other and the world ending would come before THIS GENERATION passes.

There is an entire eschatology built around this false presumption. Indeed many falsely believe that Jesus second coming happened then. One would have to believe that to hold what you just put forward. But look at the word translated as "this" to understand what is meant:

This
New Testament Greek Definition:
3778 houtos {hoo'-tos} including nominative masculine plural
houtoi {hoo'-toy}, nominative feminine singular haute {how'-tay}
and nominative feminine plural hautai {how'-tahee}
from the article 3588 and 846;; pron
AV - this 157, these 59, he 31, the same 28, this man 25, she 12,
they 10, misc 34; 356
1) this, these, etc.

You can see that on 28 other occasions houtos is translated as "the same". Now doesn't that make more sense? The same generation that sees all those things will not pass?
I put a lot of time into this study. Maybe I didn't get it all right. Maybe I didn't get much of it correct. But IT ALL FITS, unlike the traditions held by the church, and heretics that believe that Jesus already came His second time.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm

But it did not happen, and therefore that is a false Prophecy in the Bible.[/color]

You didn't even try to get a sense of the term translated as "generation". Is it strictly genealogical?:

generation - Check Strong's here
New Testament Greek Definition:
1074 genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; TDNT - 1:662,114; n f
AV - generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive
members of a genealogy
2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments,
pursuits, character
2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive
generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

We can see that it could mean a group of men with the same attributes. Like the "generation of vipers" which describes the Pharisees that had the same attributes of allowing their tradition to trump God's Word. NOT a generation simply because of the happenstance of the dating of their birth.

Or a "generation" of Christian men.

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

You can add to your list that the bible says that the wind has wings too.

Yes I can.

But I am not stupid.

If it is symbolic, tell me what 2 Samuel 22:11, symbolises.

I am not studied in that verse and my time has been short lately. I may get to it though.

Like I said, you can add to your list that the bible says that clouds have wings, from the very same verse. Do you think that God's Word literally means that clouds have wings?

And if it is symbolic then it is confusing, but God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

So it is either a contradiction or a general error.

No it is an area of scripture that requires study. Including apologetic study to put it in historical context.

Either way it is not the word of God.

Most of your defense was stupid, except Leviticus 11:13, and therefore the Bible is still not the word of God, because of the errors.[/color]

The defense was perfectly acceptable. You choose not to accept it because you wish God's Word was in error.
Do clouds have wings?

I am really enjoying our conversation, but I am desperate for you my friend.

[OneMuslimUmmah]

To answer everything you say I would require at least 2 hours and I have not that much time to spare.

I am off for 2 years.

I have school to worry about.

After I am back, Insha Allah I will speak with you again and answer every claim of yours.

Your claims are easy to answer, but require time, which I cannot spare.

[Pete]

It has been exhausting.
Good luck with your school my friend and may God bless you and lead you to the truth of His Holy Word.