Author Topic: Daniel 11:36-45  (Read 39681 times)

Peter

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Daniel 11:36-45
« on: April 28, 2010, 04:44:03 PM »
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.   37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.   38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. {in...: or, as for the Almighty God, in his seat he shall honour yea, he shall honour a god, whom, etc} {estate: or, stead} {pleasant: Heb. things desired} {forces: or, munitions: Heb. Mauzzim, or, God's protectors}   39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. {most...: Heb. fortresses of munitions} {gain: Heb. a price}   40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.   41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. land of delight, or, ornament}   42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. {stretch...: Heb. send forth}   43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.   44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.   45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. mountain of delight of holiness}

Peter

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Re: Obama's view on the Bible
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 05:09:49 PM »
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; .....

Like Mohammed

.... and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god,.....

Like what Muhammad accomplished in the hearts and minds of Muslims for 1400 years and another 1.5 billion in the world today.

..... and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods,.....

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 INDEED YE HAVE PUT FORTH A THING MOST MONSTROUS!

Surah 9.30 THE JEWS CALL "UZAIR A SON OF ALLAH, AND THE CHRISTIANS CALL CHRIST THE SON OF ALLAH..... ALLAH'S CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Surah 4:157  That they said (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear... FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT

.... and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.   37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers,.....

Indeed not. Of NOBODY'S father except moon god worshipers. The moon god of the Arabian Star Family.

.... nor the desire of women,......

Few men in history have cared less about the desires that women may have. With multiple wives and wife beating enshrined in the Quran, girls receiving 1/2 the inheritance of their brothers, women treated as chattel to be traded off to whomever the parents, or brothers, say they should marry, and on and on.....
http://beholdthebeast.com/women_in_islam.htm

...... nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Which is exactly what he accomplished.

 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces:.....

Who has done a better job of honoring that jealous fallen angel?

.... and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

All stolen from others as "spoils of war booty". Confiscating 1/5 of all plundered property, women, and girls, for himself and his "Allah".

Sura 8:69 But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sura 8:41 And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger...

Surah 59:7 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

 
{in...: or, as for the Almighty God, in his seat he shall honour yea, he shall honour a god, whom, etc} {estate: or, stead} {pleasant: Heb. things desired} {forces: or, munitions: Heb. Mauzzim, or, God's protectors}   39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory:......


Indeed. Through satanic deception he repackaged the moon god into a palatable wrapper and increased him with glory.

...... and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
He did over and over in spades. Dividing the land, property and newly enslaved between he and his fellow reprobates.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.0

 
{most...: Heb. fortresses of munitions} {gain: Heb. a price}   40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.   41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. land of delight, or, ornament}   42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. {stretch...: Heb. send forth}   43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.

Found a cool antique map just now with the first jihad separated by caliphates through 750 AD. The Islamic Empire had expanded further as you can see the location of Tours France on the map, where the First Islamic Jihad received it's death blow in 732, exactly 100 years after Mohammed died.
http://www.shadowedrealm.com/maps/political/



44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.    45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. mountain of delight of holiness}



John 10:10

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Re: Obama's view on the Bible
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 11:22:05 PM »

Some prophesies have a double fulfillment is Scripture, and if Dan 11 was fulfilled somewhat by Muhammad, it certainly will be fulfilled again by the final anti-christ.  The prophesy of Dan 11 continues on with Dan 12 which concerns what will happen at the end of the age to the Jewish people living in the land God gave to Abraham and his descendants. 

I believe Dan 11-12 also parallels the prophesy of Zech 12-14 when/where the Lord Jesus will go forth to fight against the nations gathered against Jerusalem.  "Everyone who is found written in the book (of life) will be rescued" (Dan 12:1).

Blessings

Peter

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Re: Obama's view on the Bible
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2010, 05:46:27 AM »

Some prophesies have a double fulfillment is Scripture, and if Dan 11 was fulfilled somewhat by Muhammad, it certainly will be fulfilled again by the final anti-christ.  The prophesy of Dan 11 continues on with Dan 12 which concerns what will happen at the end of the age to the Jewish people living in the land God gave to Abraham and his descendants.  

I believe Dan 11-12 also parallels the prophesy of Zech 12-14 when/where the Lord Jesus will go forth to fight against the nations gathered against Jerusalem.  "Everyone who is found written in the book (of life) will be rescued" (Dan 12:1).

Blessings


If this "the" "antichrist", is a single man that you expect to come in the future, where else do you find reference to him? Anywhere in the New Testament, for example?

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11 36-45
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 06:23:25 AM »
My understanding certainly isn't without warts, not the least of which is reference to "time of the end", unless we look at Mohammed as a shadow king still ruling. Nobody can deny that Mohammed (through Satan and the spirit of antichrist) is still in full control of the hearts and minds of 1.5 billion people - 1/4 of mankind even though his corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave. Who IS the second in command of Mohammedanism? Nobody.
This only just now occurred to me but it seems to bring some clarity to the passage.

I do view the Islamic kingdom "beast" as a single entity, and use the same male gender that Daniel assigned to his kingdom beasts.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

For that matter, I also believe the Islamic empire is described as a "king" as well as "beast" in John's 8 "kings"/"beasts.

Revelation 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

"….. it is said, five of the seven Kings are fallen, and one is, and another is not yet come; and the Beast that was and is not, being wounded to death with a sword, he is the eighth, and of the seven: he was therefore a collateral part of the seventh." - Isaac Newton

(I understand that "wounding to death" as being the Battle of Tours which was the deathknell of the Islamic First Jihad, with the Islamic beast much later being "healed" through transfer of western wealth to the beast in oil development and subsequent purchase.)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=83.msg216#msg216
http://beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335_days

To discuss this wounding and healing of the LBL beast please go to that thread
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0

To discuss John's 8 beasts/kings please go to that thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=13.0

Halley's Bible Handbook (1927) "As to verses 36-45: Antiochus Epiphanes? Or Mohammedan Possession of Holy Land? Or Antichrist? Or all three?"

John 10:10

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Re: Daniel 11 36-45
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 10:12:08 AM »
I believe Jesus spoke of this coming antichrist in Matt 24:15 which is a reference to Dan 9:27 which says,

"and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

John 2:18 says, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."

I believe John reveals the "beast" of Rev 13 and 19 as this coming antichrist.

Time will tell if there will be a coming "single antichrist" who will fulfill Dan 7:25, and also fulfill the above prophesies.  I just want to be prepared to be an overcomer as our Lord has called us to be.

Blessings
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 11:30:00 PM by John 10:10 »

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11 36-45
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »

I believe Jesus spoke of this coming antichrist in Matt 24:15 which is a reference to Dan 9:27 which says,

"and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

We learn from Mark that the abomination of desolation is an IT, not a him.

Mark 13:14  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11 36-45
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 11:41:45 AM »
John 2:18 says, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."

I believe John reveals the "beast" of Rev 13 and 19 as this coming antichrist.


How so? In the very same verse he declares that even at the time he was writing there were many antichrists.
Look at it hermeneutically.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

How could the above verse make any sense if the first use of the term antichrist were supposed to be an individual person as "The" "Antichrist", when six words later we learn there are many antichrists?  This is the only verse of the only 4 verses that contain the term "antichrist" that can be construed to indicate a single individual.  Let's develop our understanding by looking to another verse that also uses the term antichrist in a singular fashion:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You can see the singular "that", "spirit", "it" in this sentence and singular "antichrist", just like the singular "antichrist" in 1 John 2:18.  The translators gave us a little extra push in 1 John 4:3 by inserting the word [spirit] a second time, further clarifying that the spirit of antichrist is this singular entity.  Now look at how this makes the "little children" verse make perfect sense if, when you get to the first use of term antichrist, you understand it as THE SPIRIT OF antichrist:

John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [the spirit of] antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Finally look also at how beautifully parallel these two verse snippets are:

"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"ye have heard that it should come"

Pretty clear to me that the singular use in the verse you cited is talking about the spirit of antichrist.
I believe going beyond that, is a great leap of presumption, for the purpose of making it conform to doctrine.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11 36-45
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 11:46:23 AM »
Time will tell if there will be a coming "single antichrist" who will fulfill Dan 7:25, and also fulfill the above prophesies.  I just want to be prepared to be an overcomer as our Lord has called us to be.

Blessings[/b]

But I believe that Darby's doctrine has done the opposite. We have 80 million evangelicals that believe that Jesus delays His return at least 7 years by virtue of the fact that they haven't been raptured yet. What this offers to unrepentant wanna be's, or wish they were's, is the allure of judgment deferred. Put off repenting until they see folks disappear in the "rapture". Folks believing that everyone in the world who is for a fabled antichrist must first get a computer chip implanted and other such fantastic nonsense. Like the whole world will see planes fall from the sky with no pilots, cars crash into trees with no drivers, and they somehow still wouldn't be expected to understand that they have exactly 7 years left before Jesus' return.

Compare that with an ethnographic view of John's whole "world". If that mark is the spirit of antichrist in the foreheads - minds - of Mohammed's followers, then virtually everybody in what was John's whole "world" already carries the mark of the beast.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=510.0



That means that enough prophecy has been fulfilled to herald the FINAL RETURN - FINAL JUDGMENT - of Jesus Christ right now! Isn't that the kind of view that best prepares someone for the imminent return of Christ?
And prepares us for keeping on until then, by really understanding Islam as the end-time foe of God's people, instead of looking for some bogeyman of some distant future someday?

Strong's
 
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians

1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

John 10:10

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 02:16:57 PM »

I don't understand why you are so against the "possibility" of there coming an "antichrist" who will fulfill the prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, becoming the "beast" of Rev 13 & 19?

I'm not sure what you mean by Darby's doctrine and "80 million evangelicals that believe that Jesus delays His return at least 7 years by virtue of the fact that they haven't been raptured yet."  I believe Jesus comes once at the end of the age, and according to Matthew 13:41 & 49, the unrighteous are taken out first for judgment.

Blessings

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 03:14:17 PM »

I don't understand why you are so against the "possibility" of there coming an "antichrist" who will fulfill the prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, becoming the "beast" of Rev 13 & 19?


It isn't about what I am for or against but rather what I believe scripture allows. However from where I stand today I can see how Darby's doctrine blinded the church and made Islam virtually invisible to it. Or at least certainly more invisible than their "The" "Antichrist" bogeyman. ALL unsound doctrine is the work of the enemy and I believe that's the fruit of this one.
I held Darby's 7 year tribulation doctrine myself for a dozen or so years. The bible tells us to "prove all things".

It is hermeneutically unsound to suggest that the "beast" is a man since scripture already defined it in the book of Daniel as a kingdom, at least when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...  

Particularly unsound since the figures of lion, bear and leopard are used together only twice in scripture, and both times they are in the context of a dream or vision.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0

If you didn't get a chance to before, why don't you review those threads on beasts?
the LBL beast
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=12.0

John's 8 beasts/kings
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=13.0

I'm not sure what you mean by Darby's doctrine and "80 million evangelicals that believe that Jesus delays His return at least 7 years by virtue of the fact that they haven't been raptured yet."

Well the vast majority of that group hold a doctrine penned by a guy named John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century. He borrowed concepts and pieces of it from dubious prior authors.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=499.0

An almost as vast majority also hold a pre-trib rapture doctrine which means they must believe that Jesus delays His second coming at least 7 years, because they haven't been "raptured" yet, and it will be 7 years after they are raptured that Jesus returns.

Unfortunately there is no historical evidence that the church held Darby's 7 year tribulation, or pre-trib rapture, etc. etc. prior to when it left Darby's pen in the mid 1800s.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=7.0

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 03:20:28 PM »

I don't understand why you are so against the "possibility" of there coming an "antichrist" who will fulfill the prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, becoming the "beast" of Rev 13 & 19?

That "man of sin" of Thess 2:3 cannot be "The" "Antichrist" because he "sitteth in the temple of God". That has only been one location since the cross.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

While dreams and visions in prophecy are widely open to interpretation, the above verse is absolutely not.

man of sin
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=417.0
temple of god
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=103.0

I do believe from Thess 2:8 forward THE LIE that is discussed, and people deceived, may well be a reference to Mohammedanism.

Here's a verse by verse of Rev 13 as I understand it. (though that is a year or more ago that I wrote it and may likely revise it in light of what I continue to learn)
http://beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm

Who do you believe THE false prophet of Revelation to be?

John 10:10

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 03:56:45 PM »

Whoever the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 is, he will slain by the Lord at His 2nd coming

Whoever the beast of Rev 13 & 19 is, this beast is seized and thrown into the lake of fire at our Lord's 2nd coming.

It's hard for me to see how the "lawless one" and the "beast" are not persons who are yet to arrive on the world's scene, and in fact could be the same person that many Christians consider will be the "final antichrist."

I fully recognize the danger of Islam as it has invaded our world for the past 1400 years, but tying Scriptural prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 13 & 19 to past Islamic fulfillment does not line up with events that will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming where a "lawless one" will be slain, and a "beast" will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Blessings

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 04:09:46 PM »

Whoever the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 is, he will slain by the Lord at His 2nd coming.  

Whoever the beast of Rev 13 & 19 is, this beast is seized and thrown into the lake of fire at our Lord's 2nd coming.

It's hard for me to see how the "lawless one" and the "beast" are not persons who are yet to arrive on the world's scene, and in fact could be the same person that many Christians consider will be the "final antichrist."

I fully understand that because I once stood in your shoes. But your quote "final antichrist", for example, certainly doesn't come from scripture.
However, today it is unimaginable to me that - purely because of a 19th century doctrine that Christians have been taught - they must necessarily exclude even from consideration that Mohammed could be THE false prophet, yet that's just what your doctrine has absolutely prevented you from being allowed to believe.
This gets to the question you had earlier as to what I had against your doctrine. I see it as causing almost hopeless eschatological blindness in the body of Christ - whether preterists or futurists - purely because of these two doctrines that were popularized in the 20th century church.

But through the TRADITIONAL continuous-historic context it is easy to see Mohammed as THE false prophet, and his murderous Islamic Empire as the kingdom "beast" John discusses, in light of Mohammed's 1400 year record of success, in leading millions to perdition specifically in the spirit of antichrist, while denying Jesus shed blood, as primary tenants of His 7th century antichrist religion. Claiming another 1.5 billion souls as I write. The perfect OPPOSITE of the Gospel. The ONLY anti-another-religion, religion. Islam is to Christianity as the negative is to a photograph.

I fully recognize the danger of Islam as it has invaded our world for the past 1400 years, but tying Scriptural prophesies of Dan 7:25, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 13 & 19 to past Islamic fulfillment does not line up with events that will happen just prior to our Lord's 2nd coming where a "lawless one" will be slain, and a "beast" will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Blessings

Are you maybe forgetting the resurrection of the dead at final judgment?

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast {Islamic Empire} was taken, and with him {kingdom/beast is a "his" in Daniel} the false prophet [Mohammed] that wrought miracles [Quran] before him, [this means "in the presence of" the beast - Islam - Muslims] with which he deceived them {Muslims} that had received the mark {666} of the beast, and them {Muslims} that worshipped his image. {today's Islam and second Jihad in the image of the Islamic First Jihad.  Jihad is the pinnacle of worship in Islam} These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In this rare instance, the NKJV does a little better job of this portion of this verse:
(NKJV) Revelation 19:20 ...and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence...
The Greek word "semeion" translated as "miracles" and "signs" is defined in Strong's as "that by which a person is distinguished from others and is known". That makes Mohammed a perfect fit for the false prophet, since he is his known for his Quran, and has without question been distinguished from others by it for 1400 years.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them {Muslims} was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast {Islamic Empire} and the false prophet {Mohammed} [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

http://beawatchman.blogspot.com/2008/10/ellis-skolfield-end-of-days-islam-and.html

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Obama's view on the Bible
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2010, 07:49:43 AM »
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; .....

...... nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Which is exactly what he accomplished.


Peter you have said many of the things I considered the other day when I first read Daniel 11 in an attempt to answer the initial question. I feel like some expounding may be needed to help people understand things here and so I wish to share some verses from the koran that show that Muhammad did indeed magnify himself above all.

For all of his admissions about being subservient to God Muhammad constantly equated obedience to him with that of obedience to his Allah.

"O you who believe, obey All'h and His Messenger ... " (8:20) "Say: obey All'h and obey the Messenger ... " (24:54) He says, "Obey All'h and the Messenger and perhaps you will be shown mercy." (3:132) "If you obey him, you will be guided ... " (24:54) "Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed All'h ... " (4:79) "That what the Messenger brings you and leave what he forbids you ... " (59:7) "Whoever obeys All'h and the Messenger is with those whom All'h has blessed." (4:68) "We did not send any Messenger but for him to be obeyed by the permission of All'h." (4:63)

It was a clever plan. Once he had everyone convinced of Allah's supremacy he cut himself in on the power and authority. Just like when he cut himself in on the booty. Which is ludicrous to think God wants gold and silver to start with. What would he do with it? Ah, but Muhammad had plenty he could do with it.



Also I believe at some point this chapter deals less with Muhammad specifically and deals with what he perpetuated. Islam. And here is why.


Dan 11:26   Yea, they that feed 398 of the portion of his meat 6598 shall destroy 7665 him, and his army 2428 shall overflow 7857 : and many 7227 shall fall 5307 down slain 2491.  

That is exactly how Muhammad met his end. Notice that the death of this king did not stop the expansion of his army or its' killing.

Dan 11:30   For the ships 6716 of Chittim 3794 shall come 935 against him: therefore he shall be grieved 3512 , and return 7725 , and have indignation 2194 against the holy 6944 covenant 1285: so shall he do 6213 ; he shall even return 7725 , and have intelligence 995 with them that forsake 5800 the holy 6944 covenant 1285.  

This is very interesting too. I looked up Chittim and this is what came up.

Chittim or Kittim = "bruisers"

1) a general term for all islanders of the Mediterranean Sea

2) the descendants of Javan, the son of Japheth and grandson of Noah

The europeans have traditionally been believed to be descendants of Japeth. This finally where Islam was halted for the first time. And it makes sense that it would include the use of ships given that europeans were a naval power and arabians were not. In fact this ability to control the mediterranean was what kept the crusaders supplied in desperate times. Also note that knowledge will be gained from them that forsook the holy covenant. We see the fruits of this today when passages from the koran are lifted from the bible, mishna, and gnostic gospels.


Dan 11:31   And arms 2220 shall stand 5975 on his part, and they shall pollute 2490 the sanctuary 4720 of strength 4581, and shall take away 5493 the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and they shall place 5414 the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 .  

Given what we know about the abomination of desolation from the preceding chapters of Daniel we know Muhammad was not alive for this and so by this point the chapter is dealing with Islam in general.


Dan 11:32   And such as do wickedly 7561 against the covenant 1285 shall he corrupt 2610 by flatteries 2514: but the people 5971 that do know 3045 their God 430 shall be strong 2388 , and do 6213 [exploits].  

This is exactly how converts were created in the earliest days of Islam. The only Jew who would follow Muhammad is one that has forsaken the holy covenant. And lying for the cause of Islam is mandated by the koran.


 Dan 11:33   And they that understand 7919 among the people 5971 shall instruct 995 many 7227: yet they shall fall 3782 by the sword 2719, and by flame 3852, by captivity 7628, and by spoil 961, [many] days 3117.  

Which has been the fate of Jews in Islamic countries for 1400 years.


Dan 11:42   He shall stretch forth 7971 his hand 3027 also upon the countries 776: and the land 776 of Egypt 4714 shall not escape 6413.

Islam did conquer this country and it is still in its' grip today housing the leading Islamic university, Al-Azhar  


 Dan 11:43   But he shall have power 4910 over the treasures 4362 of gold 2091 and of silver 3701, and over all the precious 2532 things of Egypt 4714: and the Libyans 3864 and the Ethiopians 3569 [shall be] at his steps 4703.

Libya has given in to Islam and Ethiopia is right on its' heels. Islam is the second largest religion in Ethiopia and growing.


Dan 11:45   And he shall plant 5193 the tabernacles 168 of his palace 643 between the seas 3220 in the glorious 6643 holy 6944 mountain 2022; yet he shall come 935 to his end 7093, and none shall help 5826 him.  

I believe this to be referencing the mosques that have been established on the Temple mount.

What is interesting is if you pay attention to the tenses Daniel used it reads as something that progresses over time. Not a single spot on the historical map. Daniel reiterates a few times that this has to happen before the end time to drive the point home that this is happening over time.Daniel 11:27...for yet the end 7093 [shall be] at the time appointed 4150. ,:35...because [it is] yet for a time appointed 4150.

  



« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 03:32:11 PM by Peter »
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2010, 08:37:28 AM »
GREAT POST!

If you ever want an easy copy and paste that doesn't include the Strong's tags I use this site
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
But watch out since it is Nkjv by default. You can easily switch it to KJV in upper left

John 10:10

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Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2010, 09:55:59 AM »

The context of Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20 concerns the time of great trouble that immediately precedes the 2nd coming of our Lord.  If you want to believe these prophesies have already been fulfulled, that is your choice. 

Eschatology beliefs are not essential to salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.  But for those who are or will live in the very last days that precede our Lord's 2nd coming, they will be essential in enabling us to be overcomers and endure to the end (Matt 24:13-14).   

As for me, I believe these Scriptures still have a future tense fulfillment with a future tense "antichrist" type person fulfilling these prophesies.

Blessings

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2010, 11:57:01 AM »

The context of Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20 concerns the time of great trouble that immediately precedes the 2nd coming of our Lord.  If you want to believe these prophesies have already been fulfulled, that is your choice.  

Eschatology beliefs are not essential to salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.  But for those who are or will live in the very last days that precede our Lord's 2nd coming, they will be essential in enabling us to be overcomers and endure to the end (Matt 24:13-14).  

As for me, I believe these Scriptures still have a future tense fulfillment with a future tense "antichrist" type person fulfilling these prophesies.

Blessings


It is true that eschatological views are not essential to salvation. However the view that you cling to blinds the vast majority of believers to the dangers in our present. Not to mention it propogates the doctrine of judgement deferred. How many people do you suppose would wait until "the rapture" to get things right with the Lord? Furthermore how thick would even the most natural minded man have to be in order not to see the parallels between prophecy playing out in such a short period of time given the wide spread knowledge and accessability of the futurist doctrine? Those Left Behind books have really painted that view into a corner. Besides look at prophecies in Daniel that we know are fulfilled for fact because they are identified as such in the text. Those four beast kingdoms were prophecied waaaaay in advance and yet the fulfillment of those prophecies spanned hundreds of years. Why would God suddenly deviate from His method of fulfillment to wrap everything up in a way that directly conflicts with scripture? I ask you with all the horrible things that have happened in this last century alone, the holocaust, 2 million somolian christians killed, vietnam, the introduction of communism, the introduction of nazism,etc how bad do things have to get to qualify as tribulation? Perhaps explaining to the millions of Christians that live in Islamic countries that they should not fret because tribulation hasn't come yet will ease their suffering. Those people live in John's world. They are being persecuted ver batim as it was said Christians would be in Revelation.

Rev 1:9 - I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

Are you, as John put it, a companion in tribulation or not?

Please show me scriptural support for this seven year tribulation and antichrist figure and let us begin from there. Or you could go through the False Prophet. If you have done that then please lay out a point by point post of your scriptrual support for your doctrine and we can discuss it that way.A

God bless
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 03:32:33 PM by Peter »
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

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Re: Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2010, 12:37:35 PM »

The context of Dan 7:25-27, 2 Thess 2:8, and Rev 19:20 concerns the time of great trouble that immediately precedes the 2nd coming of our Lord.  If you want to believe these prophesies have already been fulfulled, that is your choice.  

Eschatology beliefs are not essential to salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.  But for those who are or will live in the very last days that precede our Lord's 2nd coming, they will be essential in enabling us to be overcomers and endure to the end (Matt 24:13-14).  

As for me, I believe these Scriptures still have a future tense fulfillment with a future tense "antichrist" type person fulfilling these prophesies.

Blessings


You keep quoting the same verse numbers as if they support a futurist view, and as if nothing was written about them earlier in this thread, like for example the abomination of desolation being an "it" and such. Why don't you point out my error to me?
Is the abomination of desolation an "it" or not?
Is the corporate body of Christ the "temple of God" or not?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=103.0
Do you believe a future rebuilt physical temple is prophesied in scripture? If so why? If not what does your "The" "Antichrist" defile?
If these suddenly look like trick, or just difficult questions, why do you suppose that is?

Why do you suppose the doctrine that you hold was not to be found in the church before it left the pen of John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century? Here is how a real heavyweight futurist that holds your doctrine put it:

"Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute, himself an ardent supporter of the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield eschatological scheme, admitted in his Mysteries of God, p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [i.e., the Seven-Year Tribulation theory] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm#pseudo_ephraem

Darby isn't all the 19th century brought the church.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=80.0

Why do you suppose it is that people are Mormons, or Jehovah's Witness, or Christian Scientists?

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2010, 12:55:52 PM »
Are we really to expect that:

Yet a different billion and a half people (1/4 of mankind) will also be specifically antichrist as a foundation of their religion ("shirk" - "God has no Son).

Yet a different billion and a half people will also follow a different, as yet unknown, also antichrist European false prophet.

Yet a different antichrist religion will also "wear out the saints" by murdering Jews and Christians - also by beheading. (Dan 7:25)

Yet a different religion will also change the times - by creating its own calendar. (Daniel 7:25)

Yet a different religion will also seek to change laws - by ignoring the Sabbath as well as imposing Sharia law, in the place of laws of legitimate sovereign nations, throughout the world. (Daniel 7:25)  See "Time, Times and a Half"

Yet a different religion will also build yet another abomination on the Temple Mount that will:
1) Blaspheme God The Most High - for 1300 years with mosaic inscriptions inside and out of "Far be it from God's glory that he  should have a Son".
2) Blaspheme God's name - blaspheme Yahweh by calling their god Allah.
3) Blaspheme God's tabernacle - by building the Dome of the Rock, with blasphemy written all over it, within 300 feet of where the Holy of Holies was kept, as well as blaspheme against God's true tabernacle, the body of Christ.

Yet a different religion will also be marked by the number 666.

Yet a different religion will establish in a few years, what took Islam almost 1400 years to establish.

Or alternately are we really to believe that the 1.5 billion antichrist Muslims in the world today, will all convert to a different as yet unknown European antichrist religion, operated by some as yet unknown charismatic antichrist European leader, and this in a period of just a few years?  This, even as we watch Europe fall to Islam?

Not surprisingly, as the church slides deeper into apostasy, or the "falling away" as 2 Thessalonians describes it, the Presbyterian church is divesting of Israel and leaders even met with Hezbollah, perhaps the Anglicans may not be far behind.

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2010, 01:45:17 PM »

As I have explained to you several times, I do not believe in a rapture of the Church before a great tribulation time, then unbelievers on earth somehow getting right with God with a Church tucked away in heaven.

I believe in one 2nd coming of our Lord at the end of a great tribulation time (Rev 19), and final judgment at that time. 

I do not believe Rev 20 sequentially follows Rev 19, but explains other events leading to the same final judgment which is described in both chapters.

I believe a bunch of bad dudes will be alive on earth during the time shortly before our Lord returns, including the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."

As Jesus taught in the Matt 13 parables, I believe the wheat and the tares will grow and be alive on earth until the final harvest.  The tares will be taken first for judgment, "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.  He that has ears, let him hear." (Matt 13:43).

These are my eschatology beliefs in a nutshell.

Blessings

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2010, 02:20:02 PM »

As I have explained to you several times, I do not believe in a rapture of the Church before a great tribulation time, then unbelievers on earth somehow getting right with God with a Church tucked away in heaven.

I believe in one 2nd coming of our Lord at the end of a great tribulation time (Rev 19), and final judgment at that time.  

I do not believe Rev 20 sequentially follows Rev 19, but explains other events leading to the same final judgment which is described in both chapters.

I believe a bunch of bad dudes will be alive on earth during the time shortly before our Lord returns, including the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."

As Jesus taught in the Matt 13 parables, I believe the wheat and the tares will grow and be alive on earth until the final harvest.  The tares will be taken first for judgment, "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.  He that has ears, let him hear." (Matt 13:43).

These are my eschatology beliefs in a nutshell.

Blessings


So what's the "abomination of desolation" in the Matt 24:15 verse that you referenced previously?

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2010, 08:47:39 AM »

As I have explained to you several times, I do not believe in a rapture of the Church before a great tribulation time, then unbelievers on earth somehow getting right with God with a Church tucked away in heaven.

I believe in one 2nd coming of our Lord at the end of a great tribulation time (Rev 19), and final judgment at that time. 

I do not believe Rev 20 sequentially follows Rev 19, but explains other events leading to the same final judgment which is described in both chapters.

I believe a bunch of bad dudes will be alive on earth during the time shortly before our Lord returns, including the "lawless one" of 2 Thess 2:8 "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."

As Jesus taught in the Matt 13 parables, I believe the wheat and the tares will grow and be alive on earth until the final harvest.  The tares will be taken first for judgment, "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.  He that has ears, let him hear." (Matt 13:43).

These are my eschatology beliefs in a nutshell.

Blessings


2Th 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

2Th 2:4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The temple of God is the body. 

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

These verses are not open to interpretation. So the idea of a physical man of sin residing there is a little far-fetched.



2Th 2:5   Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

2Th 2:6   And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

2Th 2:7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 

He was already at work in Paul's day.



2Th 2:8   And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 

2Th 2:9   [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

2Th 2:10   And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

The man of sin resides in them that perish. Those who did not accept the truth. That man of sin is eradicated the moment Jesus enters into you.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Obama's view on the Bible
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2010, 10:18:49 AM »
Dan 11:45   And he shall plant 5193 the tabernacles 168 of his palace 643 between the seas 3220 in the glorious 6643 holy 6944 mountain 2022; yet he shall come 935 to his end 7093, and none shall help 5826 him.  

I believe this to be referencing the mosques that have been established on the Temple mount.

Considering al-Aqsa Mosque is considered the third most holy mosque in Islam, and it is located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, and is built on the temple mount, I think you may well be right.
Regarding the plural...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mosques_in_Jerusalem

Peter

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Re: Daniel 11:36-45
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2010, 10:22:35 AM »
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

These verses are not open to interpretation. So the idea of a physical man of sin residing there is a little far-fetched.

Might we be able to consider it in physical man sense, residing within the corporate body of Christ?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Like this, for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkEpQlL1GHo&NR=1