Hagar, Mecca, and the Umrah - Al-Safa and Al-Marwah (from Black Stone)

[Peter]

Split off from the Black Stone thread here http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1906.msg8268#msg8268

Sigh. Again, why do you suppose that about 1 out of every 9 verses in Mohammed's "revelations" regard consequences?

The answer is so Satan could scare you into rejecting YHWH to follow Mohammed. To scare you into bowing toward the very same black box that the pagan Arabians worshiped at. Mohammed's followers even today, squandering money that could otherwise feed the poor, on flying to Mecca and venerating the Quraish's black stone idol, by circumambulating the kaaba just like the pagan Arabian moon god worshipers did. Running back and forth between Safa and Marwah like the Arabian jinn-demon worshipers did.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

YOU REPEAT YOUR LIES SO EASILY WITHOUT AN PROOF WAHTSOVER, WITHOUT CITING A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE QURAN!!!!

Let's start with your non-specific accusation, then later we will cover the history and archaeology of Jesus, and your requested subject of the archaeology of Mecca, to split off into it's own thread.

1. Do Muslims bow toward the same black box that the pagan Arabians worshiped at?
2. Do Muslims fly to Mecca to circumambulate the kaaba and the black stone, that pagan Arabian moon god worshipers traveled to and circumambulated?
3. Do Muslims run back and forth between Al Safa and Al Marwah like the pagan Arabians did?

Yes or no - on each count
Don't think you will get away with changing the subject or posting a blizzard of dung or it will go straight to spam. Just answer the questions.

1, YES , proving that Muhammad did not invent anything new he came to correct who to worship JUST LIKE JESUS
2, Yes, again proof that Muhammad came to correct who to worship, WE DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOD  OF JESUS
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

Regarding point 3, are you denying that the pagan Arabians before Mohammed ran back and forth between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah?

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

[Mujaheed]

Sigh. Again, why do you suppose that about 1 out of every 9 verses in Mohammed's "revelations" regard consequences?

The answer is so Satan could scare you into rejecting YHWH to follow Mohammed. To scare you into bowing toward the very same black box that the pagan Arabians worshiped at. Mohammed's followers even today, squandering money that could otherwise feed the poor, on flying to Mecca and venerating the Quraish's black stone idol, by circumambulating the kaaba just like the pagan Arabian moon god worshipers did. Running back and forth between Safa and Marwah like the Arabian jinn-demon worshipers did.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

YOU REPEAT YOUR LIES SO EASILY WITHOUT AN PROOF WAHTSOVER, WITHOUT CITING A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE QURAN!!!!

Let's start with your non-specific accusation, then later we will cover the history and archaeology of Jesus, and your requested subject of the archaeology of Mecca, to split off into it's own thread.

1. Do Muslims bow toward the same black box that the pagan Arabians worshiped at?
2. Do Muslims fly to Mecca to circumambulate the kaaba and the black stone, that pagan Arabian moon god worshipers traveled to and circumambulated?
3. Do Muslims run back and forth between Al Safa and Al Marwah like the pagan Arabians did?

Yes or no - on each count
Don't think you will get away with changing the subject or posting a blizzard of dung or it will go straight to spam. Just answer the questions.

1, YES , proving that Muhammad did not invent anything new he came to correct who to worship JUST LIKE JESUS
2, Yes, again proof that Muhammad came to correct who to worship, WE DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOD  OF JESUS
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

Regarding point 3, are you denying that the pagan Arabians before Mohammed ran back and forth between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah?

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

The pagans did but we do not do it like them
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.[/quote]

I am not prone to conjecture and therefore have a sharp and clear mind as opposed to one confused by falsehood.

[Peter]

Sigh. Again, why do you suppose that about 1 out of every 9 verses in Mohammed's "revelations" regard consequences?

The answer is so Satan could scare you into rejecting YHWH to follow Mohammed. To scare you into bowing toward the very same black box that the pagan Arabians worshiped at. Mohammed's followers even today, squandering money that could otherwise feed the poor, on flying to Mecca and venerating the Quraish's black stone idol, by circumambulating the kaaba just like the pagan Arabian moon god worshipers did. Running back and forth between Safa and Marwah like the Arabian jinn-demon worshipers did.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

YOU REPEAT YOUR LIES SO EASILY WITHOUT AN PROOF WAHTSOVER, WITHOUT CITING A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE QURAN!!!!

Let's start with your non-specific accusation, then later we will cover the history and archaeology of Jesus, and your requested subject of the archaeology of Mecca, to split off into it's own thread.

1. Do Muslims bow toward the same black box that the pagan Arabians worshiped at?
2. Do Muslims fly to Mecca to circumambulate the kaaba and the black stone, that pagan Arabian moon god worshipers traveled to and circumambulated?
3. Do Muslims run back and forth between Al Safa and Al Marwah like the pagan Arabians did?

Yes or no - on each count
Don't think you will get away with changing the subject or posting a blizzard of dung or it will go straight to spam. Just answer the questions.

1, YES , proving that Muhammad did not invent anything new he came to correct who to worship JUST LIKE JESUS
2, Yes, again proof that Muhammad came to correct who to worship, WE DO IT FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOD  OF JESUS
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

Regarding point 3, are you denying that the pagan Arabians before Mohammed ran back and forth between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah?

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

The pagans did but we do not do it like them
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

I am not prone to conjecture and therefore have a sharp and clear mind as opposed to one confused by falsehood.

So let's explore that "sharp and clear mind" a little more.

So you bow toward the Quraish's Kaaba that houses the Quraish's black stone idol - 5 times a day. And you travel all the way to Mecca to engage in what were Arabian pagan rituals, of circumambulating the kaaba and the Quraish's black stone idol, and running back and forth between Marwah and Safa.

And you engage in those rituals 1200 kilometers away from Jerusalem - from the Holy Land - solely because you follow Mohammed's "law", that he claimed to have received from his "Allah", in the 7th century AD.

Does that about sum up WHY you do those things?
Can you think of any other non-personal reasons you do those things?
(I'm obviously not asking for "because I like to" and have already covered the "because Mohammed said to")

[Peter]

I will presume that the answer to the prior question, as to why you engage in the rituals that the Quraish pagans did, is solely because Mohammed said to.

The pagans did but we do not do it like them
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

I am not prone to conjecture and therefore have a sharp and clear mind as opposed to one confused by falsehood.

We agree that the Quraish ran back and forth between Safa and Marwah in their pagan ritual. But where did you come up with Hagar ever having done that?
From the Quran?

[Mujaheed]

I will presume that the answer to the prior question, as to why you engage in the rituals that the Quraish pagans did, is solely because Mohammed said to.

The pagans did but we do not do it like them
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

I am not prone to conjecture and therefore have a sharp and clear mind as opposed to one confused by falsehood.

We agree that the Quraish ran back and forth between Safa and Marwah in their pagan ritual. But where did you come up with Hagar ever having done that?
From the Quran?

FROM THE QURAN
Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are also mentioned in the Qur'an.
Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
—Sura 2, Al-Baqara, Ayah 158[3]

[Peter]

I will presume that the answer to the prior question, as to why you engage in the rituals that the Quraish pagans did, is solely because Mohammed said to.

The pagans did but we do not do it like them
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

I am not prone to conjecture and therefore have a sharp and clear mind as opposed to one confused by falsehood.

We agree that the Quraish ran back and forth between Safa and Marwah in their pagan ritual. But where did you come up with Hagar ever having done that?
From the Quran?

FROM THE QURAN
Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are also mentioned in the Qur'an.
Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
—Sura 2, Al-Baqara, Ayah 158[3]

1. Indeed! We can see that the "symbols" of Safa and Marwa were so widely recognized as being sinful that Mohammed had to recite another damage control sura.
But what changed the sinful Quraish jinn-demon worship ritual, to suddenly being unsinful, beside Mohammed's saying it was unsinful?

2. Now why not answer the question? "But where did you come up with Hagar ever having done that?"
That is ever having done what you described.

[Mujaheed]

I will presume that the answer to the prior question, as to why you engage in the rituals that the Quraish pagans did, is solely because Mohammed said to.

The pagans did but we do not do it like them
3 NO, WE DO IT LIKE HAGAR THE MOTHER OF ISMAIL DID WHEN SHE LOOKED FOR WATER.

I am not prone to conjecture and therefore have a sharp and clear mind as opposed to one confused by falsehood.

We agree that the Quraish ran back and forth between Safa and Marwah in their pagan ritual. But where did you come up with Hagar ever having done that?
From the Quran?

FROM THE QURAN
Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are also mentioned in the Qur'an.
Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
—Sura 2, Al-Baqara, Ayah 158[3]

[/color]

1. Indeed! We can see that the "symbols" of Safa and Marwa were so widely recognized as being sinful that Mohammed had to recite another damage control sura.
But what changed the sinful Quraish jinn-demon worship ritual, to suddenly being unsinful, beside Mohammed's saying it was unsinful?

2. Now why not answer the question? "But where did you come up with Hagar ever having done that?"
That is ever having done what you described.

DID PROHET ABRAHAM LEAVE HIS SON AND WIFE IN A DESERT?
DID SHE LOOK FOR WATER?
DOES THE BIBLE WRITERS (UNKNOWN AUTHORS HAVE A THEORY ON THE MATTER?
DOES THE CONJECTURE OF THE BIBLE INCLUDE A LOCATION?
IS ANOTHER VERSION FROM THE GOD NOT THE TRUTH?
IT COMES FROM THE QURAN AS IT IS ANOTHER SIGN FROM THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE!!!!

I FOLLOW THE QURAN AS IT IS ONLY VERIFIED WORD OF GOD. THE BIBLE IS WRITTEN ABD EDITED AND COPIED BY UNKNOWN AUTHORS AND TRANSLATED BY A CLERGY WITH POLITICAL MOTIVATION FURTHER CHANGED ACCORDING TO POPULAR BELIEF AND OPINIONS)

VI.  Qur’ân: The Comprehensive Divine Guidance to All  Mankind

The Qur’ân is the only Book in the World that offers the most comprehensive and universal guidance to all of humanity. It guides us to develop our total personality: to be physically and mentally fit, economically self-sufficient, politically stable, legally righteous, socially desirable and, above all, morally and spiritually upright. In other words, the Qur’ân guides us to have a well-balanced personality for us to attain peace and happiness both in this world and in the life hereafter. Allâh Himself emphasizes: “nothing have We omitted from the Book” (6:38). It is the Book “further explained in detail” (11:1). In other Ayât of the Qur’ân, Allâh tells us:

“…He it is Who has sent unto you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Rabb in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.” (6:114)

 â€œFor We had certainly sent unto them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail ¾ a guide and a mercy to all who believe.” (7:52)

 â€œâ€¦We have sent down to you the Book explaining all things, a guide a Mercy, and glad tidings to Muslims.” (16:89)

 â€œWe have explained in detail in this Qur’ân, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.” (18:54)

Allâh’s Book is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allâh (2:2). It contains nothing but the truth and the best explanation thereof (25:33). Allâh made it a Light to guide humanity to the Straight Way (42:52). It is no less than a Message that makes things clear (36:69) and easy to understand for our admonition (54:17, 22, 32, 40). It is the Book of Divine Guidance that is addressed to all mankind not only in this world; but also for all the worlds ¾ this temporal world and the eternal world to come in the Hereafter. Allâh says:

 â€œThis is no less than a Reminder to (all) the Worlds. And you shall certainly know the truth of it (all) after a while.” (38:87-88)

 â€œVerily, We have revealed the Book to you in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul. But he that strays injures his own soul…” (39:41)

“But it is nothing less than a Message to all the worlds.” (68:52)

“Verily, this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds: (with profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight.” (81:27-28)

Allâh sent down the Qur’ân full of truth, guidance, wisdom, glad tidings, mercy, enlightenment and instruction for all mankind. He tells us more about His Book in the following verses:

“…He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed…” (2:213)

“…and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction…” (2:231)

 â€œWe have sent down to you the Book in truth, that you might judge between men, as guided by Allâh: so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;” (4:105)

 â€œIf you bring them not a revelation, they say: ‘Why have you not got it together?’ Say, ‘I but follow what is revealed to me from my Rabb. This is (nothing but) Light from your Rabb, and Guidance, and Mercy, for any who has Faith.’” (7:203)

 

“Say, ‘The Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from your Rabb in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.’” (16:102)

 â€œVerily, this Qur’ân does guide to that which is most right (or stable), and gives the glad tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward.  And those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announces) that We have prepared for them a Penalty grievous (indeed).” (17:9-10)

“These are verses of the Qur’ân ¾ a Book that makes things clear; a Guide; and Glad Tidings for the Believers.” (27:1-2)

“Verily, this Qur’ân does explain to the Children of Israel most of the matters in which they disagree. And it certainly is a Guide and Mercy to those who believe.” (27:76-77)

 â€œAnd is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and Reminder to those who believe.” (29:51)

 â€œThese are Verses of the Wise Book ¾ a Guide and Mercy to the Doers of Good, ¾ those who establish regular Prayer, and give Zakât and have sure faith in the Hereafter. These are on (true) guidance from their Rabb; and these are the ones who will prosper.” (31:2-5)

 â€œâ€¦This is no less than a Message and a Qur’ân making things clear that it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that the charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth).” (36:69-70)

“Verily, in this is a Message for any that has a heart and understanding or who gives ear and is a witness.” (50:37)

“And we have indeed made the Qur’ân easy to understand and remember. Then is there any that will receive admonition?” (54:17)

The Qur’ân serves as a warning to the unbelievers and an inspiration to the believers. It guides everyone to differentiate what is Good from what is Evil. Allâh says:

 â€œWe sent down (stage by stage) in the Qur’ân that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss.” (17:82)

“Praise be to Allâh, who has sent to His Servant the Book, and has allowed therein no Crookedness. (He has made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn the (godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him. And that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work Righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward, wherein they shall remain forever.  Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, ‘Allâh has begotten a son.’” (18:1-4)

 â€œBehold this is the Word that distinguishes (Good from Evil).  It is not a thing for amusement.” (86:13-14)

Indeed, Allâh’s Book is the most comprehensive and divine guidance to all mankind. Allâh has explained everything in detail what is good for us to follow; and what we should avoid as something bad or evil. The Qur’ân serves as the best guidance from our Creator. We should, therefore, take admonition from it to attain peace and happiness both in this world and the life in the Hereafter.

[Peter]

I FOLLOW THE QURAN AS IT IS ONLY VERIFIED WORD OF GOD.

The Quran is specifically and exactly UNVERIFIED. Not a single witness ever heard Mohammed's "Allah" or Gabriel's voice give Mohammed a single "revelation". You already informed us that you follow Mohammed, because Mohammed told you to follow Mohammed.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1930.msg8247#msg8247
And now you copy and paste a bunch of meaningless tripe into our conversation from Mohammed's 7th century unverified, unwitnessed, claims of "revelation", that only further demonstrates that you take Mohammed's word, to take Mohammed's word.
That you believe Mohammed's sole account, of Mohammed's sole account.
This in spite of the ridiculous mess he left behind that requires so much abrogation in still laughably failed attempts to sort it all out.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
Even a 7th and 8th century created "tradition", masquerading as "history", in further failed attempts toward that goal. Let alone considering the sources of Mohammed's "inspiration".
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=452.0
What happened to that, as you described, "sharp and clear mind" of yours?
Let's explore your suggestion of "verified", in terms of something physical and unmovable, like geography, in the next post.

[Peter]

DID PROHET ABRAHAM LEAVE HIS SON AND WIFE IN A DESERT?
DID SHE LOOK FOR WATER?
DOES THE BIBLE WRITERS (UNKNOWN AUTHORS HAVE A THEORY ON THE MATTER?
DOES THE CONJECTURE OF THE BIBLE INCLUDE A LOCATION?

Yes it does. The location is the Wilderness of Beersheba. The Bible also includes a location of where Abraham lived, and was eventually buried. Muslims agree Abraham was buried near Hebron. Muslims call Hebron el-Khalil.

Abraham didn't "leave" his bondwoman, Hagar, and her son Ishmael, anywhere. Abraham kicked them out of his house. (disinheriting Ishmael) http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm
It's obvious that Abraham wouldn't have gone anywhere with his bondwoman Hagar, because he still had his wife Sarah, and their son Isaac (who inherited God's covenant) to take care of.

Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Let's start by looking at a simple graphic map to put the physical aspects of this subject into perspective. The Wilderness of Beersheba is just below Hebron, which is perfectly consistent with the scriptural account, of where Abraham lived and was buried.
While Hagar's having been a slave, would have likely had more strength than the average woman, how far could even a slave and her son wander, on one bottle of water?

So using that self-described "sharp and clear mind" of yours, can you draw any geography based conclusions regarding Hagar and the Wilderness of Beersheba, in relation to the location at which Mecca was eventually settled, and the preposterous Mohammedan assertion that Mecca is where she found water?

[Mujaheed]

DID PROHET ABRAHAM LEAVE HIS SON AND WIFE IN A DESERT?
DID SHE LOOK FOR WATER?
DOES THE BIBLE WRITERS (UNKNOWN AUTHORS HAVE A THEORY ON THE MATTER?
DOES THE CONJECTURE OF THE BIBLE INCLUDE A LOCATION?

Yes it does. The location is the Wilderness of Beersheba. The Bible also includes a location of where Abraham lived, and was eventually buried. Muslims agree Abraham was buried near Hebron. Muslims call Hebron el-Khalil.

Abraham didn't "leave" his bondwoman, Hagar, and her son Ishmael, anywhere. Abraham kicked them out of his house. (disinheriting Ishmael) http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm
It's obvious that Abraham wouldn't have gone anywhere with his bondwoman Hagar, because he still had his wife Sarah, and their son Isaac (who inherited God's covenant) to take care of.

Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Let's start by looking at a simple graphic map to put the physical aspects of this subject into perspective. The Wilderness of Beersheba is just below Hebron, which is perfectly consistent with the scriptural account, of where Abraham lived and was buried.
While Hagar's having been a slave, would have likely had more strength than the average woman, how far could even a slave and her son wander, on one bottle of water?

So using that self-described "sharp and clear mind" of yours, can you draw any geography based conclusions regarding Hagar and the Wilderness of Beersheba, in relation to the location at which Mecca was eventually settled, and the preposterous Mohammedan assertion that Mecca is where she found water?

THIS IS A BIBLICAL Account based on the knowledge available to the writer at the time!! The description of events and gives me no reason to believe that the account is highly inaccurate!!
Firstly one of the greatest Prophets of the time would not kick his Son and Wife out of his House, secondly left to wander in a desert for how longer on a bottle of water???

What is the matter with your logic? The Prophet of ALLAH has a much better story than the unknown author who may or may not even be a religious person, we Just don't know who he is and to assert that his story is accurate gives me an indication of you weak minded approach to knowledge. I understand that you believe unknown scholars accounts as the truth and I can appreciate your religious fever but that does not mean that Muhammad account is any less not acceptable. WHAT believe stems from a single biblical scholar, what I believe has been sent BY THE GOD, to correct all the inaccuracies of those that are prone to conjecture and lying.

[Peter]

THIS IS A BIBLICAL Account based on the knowledge available to the writer at the time!!

That is the very description of historical record. That which was observed and recorded by those who lived in or near the times that were written about.
Yet the ridiculous nonsense that you believe, was all penned in the 7th and 8th centuries AD, by ignorant southwestern Arabian desert dwellers, nearly a couple thousand years after these events took place.

The description of events and gives me no reason to believe that the account is highly inaccurate!!
Firstly one of the greatest Prophets of the time would not kick his Son and Wife out of his House, .......

First Hagar was their slave - their bondwoman - not Abraham's wife.
Second, he followed his wife Sarah's advice to throw them out because she caught Ishmael mocking Isaac.

Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac.

Abraham was grieved about Sarah's request because he felt responsible for their slave Hagar's son Ishmael, but God Himself assured Abraham it was the right thing to do. Here's why.

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

......... secondly left to wander in a desert for how longer on a bottle of water???

And there's the whole point. How do you suppose Hagar wandered that 1200 kilometers from the Wilderness of Beersheba to where Mecca was eventually built, on ONE bottle of water?

What is the matter with your logic? The Prophet of ALLAH has a much better story than the unknown author who may or may not even be a religious person, we Just don't know who he is and to assert that his story is accurate gives me an indication of you weak minded approach to knowledge. I understand that you believe unknown scholars accounts as the truth and I can appreciate your religious fever but that does not mean that Muhammad account is any less not acceptable. WHAT believe stems from a single biblical scholar, what I believe has been sent BY THE GOD, to correct all the inaccuracies of those that are prone to conjecture and lying.

If Mohammed's ridiculous 7th century account is no less acceptable than the historical record, then how do you explain how Hagar wandered 1200 kilometers, across harsh Arabian desert - 900 years before the first caravan ever made that trip - before getting a drink of water?

If you are unable to read a map, please disclose that fact, because the question presumes that you can.

[Mujaheed]

DID PROHET ABRAHAM LEAVE HIS SON AND WIFE IN A DESERT?
DID SHE LOOK FOR WATER?
DOES THE BIBLE WRITERS (UNKNOWN AUTHORS HAVE A THEORY ON THE MATTER?
DOES THE CONJECTURE OF THE BIBLE INCLUDE A LOCATION?

Yes it does. The location is the Wilderness of Beersheba. The Bible also includes a location of where Abraham lived, and was eventually buried. Muslims agree Abraham was buried near Hebron. Muslims call Hebron el-Khalil.

Abraham didn't "leave" his bondwoman, Hagar, and her son Ishmael, anywhere. Abraham kicked them out of his house. (disinheriting Ishmael) http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm
It's obvious that Abraham wouldn't have gone anywhere with his bondwoman Hagar, because he still had his wife Sarah, and their son Isaac (who inherited God's covenant) to take care of.

Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Let's start by looking at a simple graphic map to put the physical aspects of this subject into perspective. The Wilderness of Beersheba is just below Hebron, which is perfectly consistent with the scriptural account, of where Abraham lived and was buried.
While Hagar's having been a slave, would have likely had more strength than the average woman, how far could even a slave and her son wander, on one bottle of water?

So using that self-described "sharp and clear mind" of yours, can you draw any geography based conclusions regarding Hagar and the Wilderness of Beersheba, in relation to the location at which Mecca was eventually settled, and the preposterous Mohammedan assertion that Mecca is where she found water?

ARE YOU ASKING ME TO JOIN YOU IN CONJECTURE AND OPINION FORMATION?
I REFUSE TO BECOME A CONJECTURER AND ONE THAT MAKES WILD ASSUMPTIONS.

I AM A MUSLIM AND ACCEPT THE FINAL SCRIPTURE SENT BY ALLAH TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO CORRECT THE CONJECTURE ASCRIBED TO THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE!!!

NO amount of ignorant statements from you or anyone else will nullify the words of Muhammad or change them or make them untrue, please keep your opinions for the dung heap.

[Peter]

ARE YOU ASKING ME TO JOIN YOU IN CONJECTURE AND OPINION FORMATION?
I REFUSE TO BECOME A CONJECTURER AND ONE THAT MAKES WILD ASSUMPTIONS.

But as everyone can see, there is no way that Hagar could have wandered 1200 kilometers from THE Holy Land to Mecca. So you actually just described Mohammedan "conjecture" "wild assumptions" and pure poppycock, that was penned by a bunch of ignorant 7th and 8th century southwest Arabian desert dwellers, that you actually believe. Rejecting YHWH to follow Mohammed and his "Allah". To follow Mohammed's "law".

I AM A MUSLIM AND ACCEPT THE FINAL SCRIPTURE SENT BY ALLAH TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO CORRECT THE CONJECTURE ASCRIBED TO THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE!!!

NO amount of ignorant statements from you or anyone else will nullify the words of Muhammad or change them or make them untrue, ........

Again admitting that you believe Mohammed, because Mohammed told you to believe Mohammed. And you do that in spite of the ridiculous and demonic recycled Arabian pagan rituals that Mohammed requires you to engage in.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm

....... please keep your opinions for the dung heap.

I want to thank you once again Mujaheed for providing such a good example for your fellow Muslims that may be looking on. As if your friends needed any more evidence, for those interested in even more details that demonstrate the foolishness of the entirely unhistorical Mohammedan suggestion that Abraham or Hagar were ever near the place where Mecca was built in the 4th century AD, you can visit this link.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm

Regarding Mohammedan pop "traditions" created in the 7th and 8th centuries you can visit here.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm

The true and genuine tradition regarding the Saee was set by the pagan jinn-demon worshipers. They had idols placed on the two stones Safa and Marwa, that were two statues of Asaf who was a male and Naelah who was female. They were the most venerated priests of the Arabian Jinn religion. Arabian mythology claims they committed fornication together inside the Kaabah and the gods transformed them into stone statues. Those pagan demon worshipers ran back and forth between Safa and Marwah in their ritual just as Muslims still do today.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

Any tradition created after the pagan's tradition, like Mohammed's, would obviously be a NEW tradition.

[Mujaheed]

ARE YOU ASKING ME TO JOIN YOU IN CONJECTURE AND OPINION FORMATION?
I REFUSE TO BECOME A CONJECTURER AND ONE THAT MAKES WILD ASSUMPTIONS.

But as everyone can see, you just described that ridiculous pile of Mohammedan poppycock, penned by a bunch of ignorant 7th and 8th century southwest Arabian desert dwellers, that you actually believe. Rejecting YHWH to follow Mohammed and his "Allah".

I AM A MUSLIM AND ACCEPT THE FINAL SCRIPTURE SENT BY ALLAH TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO CORRECT THE CONJECTURE ASCRIBED TO THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE!!!

NO amount of ignorant statements from you or anyone else will nullify the words of Muhammad or change them or make them untrue, please keep your opinions for the dung heap.

That's right. Again admitting that you reject YHWH to believe Mohammed, because Mohammed told you to believe Mohammed. I want to thank you once again Mujaheed, for providing such a good example, for your fellow Muslims that may be looking on.
As if your friends needed any more evidence, for those interested in even more details that demonstrate the foolishness of Mohammedan poppycock on this issue, you can visit this link.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm

IT IS NOT A REJECTION< IT IS CONTINUATION FROM WHERE JESUS LEFT OFF FROM ALL THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS AND TO PRPARE FOR HIS COMING. THE SIGNS ARE HERE AND WE HAVE MANY MUSLIMS THAT ARE WATCHING THE AREA DAILY NOW FOR HIS APPEARANCE>

IT USED TO BE ANNUALLY THEN MONTHLY AND NOW IT IS DAILY.

[Mujaheed]

ARE YOU ASKING ME TO JOIN YOU IN CONJECTURE AND OPINION FORMATION?
I REFUSE TO BECOME A CONJECTURER AND ONE THAT MAKES WILD ASSUMPTIONS.

But as everyone can see, there is no way that Hagar could have wandered 1200 kilometers from THE Holy Land to Mecca. So you actually just described Mohammedan "conjecture" "wild assumptions" and pure poppycock, that was penned by a bunch of ignorant 7th and 8th century southwest Arabian desert dwellers, that you actually believe. Rejecting YHWH to follow Mohammed and his "Allah". To follow Mohammed's "law".

I AM A MUSLIM AND ACCEPT THE FINAL SCRIPTURE SENT BY ALLAH TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO CORRECT THE CONJECTURE ASCRIBED TO THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE!!!

NO amount of ignorant statements from you or anyone else will nullify the words of Muhammad or change them or make them untrue, ........

Again admitting that you believe Mohammed, because Mohammed told you to believe Mohammed. And you do that in spite of the ridiculous and demonic recycled Arabian pagan rituals that Mohammed requires you to engage in.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm

....... please keep your opinions for the dung heap.

I want to thank you once again Mujaheed for providing such a good example for your fellow Muslims that may be looking on. As if your friends needed any more evidence, for those interested in even more details that demonstrate the foolishness of the entirely unhistorical Mohammedan suggestion that Abraham or Hagar were ever near the place where Mecca was built in the 4th century AD, you can visit this link.
http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm

Any tradition created after the pagan's tradition, like Mohammed's, would obviously be a NEW tradition.

No one can see anything about Hagar other than what is written in the bIBLE or the QURAN!!! YOU AGREE WITH THE BIBLES OPINION OF UNKNOWN AUTHORS WHO MAY OR MAY NOT EVEN BE BELIEVERS MERELY PEOPLE WHO WERE ABLE TO WRITE!!

Someone is stating their opinion when he says the other person is lying,but we know that the Bible was written and rewritten to suit common and localized belief. IT DOES NOT MAKE MAKE IT AN ACCURATE ACCOUNT AS THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF INACCURACIES AND FALSE INTERPRETATIONS BY JEWS AND ROMANS AND GREEKS NOT TO MENTION THE MILLIONS OF SELF STYLED "EXPERTS IN THE FIELD ALL BASING THERE FINDINGS ON CONJECTURE LIES UPON LIES AND ACTUALLY FABRICATING EVIDENCE FOR THEIR CLAIMS>

Here we GO.

The link http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm is your opinion and here are the BIBLES contradictions!!

Acts 7:4) "When his father was dead"
Abraham's father, Terah, was 70 when Abraham was born (Genesis11:26), and Terah died at 205 years of age (11:32), and according to this verse, Abraham didn't leave home until after Terah died. If all this is true, then Abraham must have been at least 135 years old when he left Haran. Yet according to Genesis12:4, Abraham was 75 years old when he left home.
How old was Abraham when he left Haran?
How old was Abraham when Ishmael was born?

WAS HARAN NOT ALSO ABRAHAM'S BROTHER?

BIBLE VERSION ALSO HAS ABRAHAM"S WIFE TELLING LIES TO A KING (WELL HALF LIES)
Abram makes his wife lie for him, by telling the Egyptians that she is his sister. But at least it was half-true, since she was his half-sister. Such incestuous marriages are condemned elsewhere in the Bible, but god makes an exception for Abram and Sarai.
(See Genesis 17:15-16 where God blesses their marriage and Genesis 20:2-18 where Abram repeats the same "she's my sister" lie.)

Genesis
12:9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

12:10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.   
12:11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

BUT ISNT EGYPT TO THE WEST? HOW WOULD HE CROSS THE RED SEA TWICE TO GET TO EGYPT? O yes EGYPT ALSO RULED THE BIT BETWEEN THE RED SEA AND ARABIA RIGHT, IT IS STILL FURTHER WEST!!!!
12:14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.

HOW DO YOU SOUTH IN A DESERT AND END UP IN EGYPT???

12:14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.



THE ENTIRE ACCOUNT IS WRACKED WITH INCONSISTENCIES AND CONJECTURE RIGHT DWN TO.

THE EARTH HAD ONE LANGUAGE!!! AND YOU QUESTION A MAN IN THE REGION GIVING THE ACCOUNT MUCH CLOSER THAN THE ROMANS AND THE GREEKS???

[Peter]

No one can see anything about Hagar other than what is written in the bIBLE or the QURAN!!! YOU AGREE WITH THE BIBLES OPINION OF UNKNOWN AUTHORS WHO MAY OR MAY NOT EVEN BE BELIEVERS MERELY PEOPLE WHO WERE ABLE TO WRITE!!

We can understand why you want to run and hide from the question by raising a new topic. And we well understand that your interest and effort is in MISunderstanding scripture and rejecting the HISTORICAL ACCOUNT of Abraham is because you desire to follow Mohammed's "law" and his pop-religion that is UNDENIABLY purely and strictly a creation of ignorant semi-literate 7th and 8th century southwest Arabian desert dwellers. Since your post is strictly an attack on the textual integrity of scripture I will move your post to that thread.
Meanwhile you need to address the UNMOVABLE AND PHYSICAL questions of geography raised on this thread.

The first of the several questions that arise being how Hagar wandered 1200 kilometers, across harsh Arabian desert - 900 years before the first caravan ever made that trip - before getting a drink of water?

[Mujaheed]

No one can see anything about Hagar other than what is written in the bIBLE or the QURAN!!! YOU AGREE WITH THE BIBLES OPINION OF UNKNOWN AUTHORS WHO MAY OR MAY NOT EVEN BE BELIEVERS MERELY PEOPLE WHO WERE ABLE TO WRITE!!

We can understand why you want to run and hide from the question by raising a new topic. And we well understand that your interest and effort is in MISunderstanding scripture and rejecting the HISTORICAL ACCOUNT of Abraham is because you desire to follow Mohammed's "law" and his pop-religion that is UNDENIABLY purely and strictly a creation of ignorant semi-literate 7th and 8th century southwest Arabian desert dwellers. Since your post is strictly an attack on the textual integrity of scripture I will move your post to that thread.
Meanwhile you need to address the UNMOVABLE AND PHYSICAL questions of geography raised on this thread.

The first of the several questions that arise being how Hagar wandered 1200 kilometers, across harsh Arabian desert - 900 years before the first caravan ever made that trip - before getting a drink of water?

WANDERED? THE WIFE AND CHILD OF A PROPHET? HOW DID JESUS WALK ON WATER? WHO PARTED THE RED SEA?
WHO GAVE SAMSON HIS STRENGTH?
ARE YOU A DISBELIEVER? OR ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE TTRUTH OF ALLAH?

[Peter]

WANDERED? THE WIFE AND CHILD OF A PROPHET? HOW DID JESUS WALK ON WATER? WHO PARTED THE RED SEA?
WHO GAVE SAMSON HIS STRENGTH?
ARE YOU A DISBELIEVER? OR ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE TTRUTH OF ALLAH?

While you characterize YHWH's historical record as a lie, even as it is supported not only by scripture, but by archaeology and geography as well, you are stuck having to explain the Mohammedans 7th and 8th century created, contrary, preposterous fictional account - of events from centuries before - of Abraham and Hagar having been 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land, in the then-non-existent-city of Mecca, as a miracle.
This rather than accepting the perfectly historically, archaeologically, and geographically plausible account detailed in scripture.
Yet somehow that doesn't seem to communicate anything to you.
At least it will to the Muslim read-only participants out there that are seeking truth.

[Mujaheed]

WANDERED? THE WIFE AND CHILD OF A PROPHET? HOW DID JESUS WALK ON WATER? WHO PARTED THE RED SEA?
WHO GAVE SAMSON HIS STRENGTH?
ARE YOU A DISBELIEVER? OR ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE TTRUTH OF ALLAH?

While you characterize YHWH's historical record as a lie, even as it is supported not only by scripture, but by archaeology and geography as well, you are stuck having to explain the Mohammedans 7th and 8th century created, contrary, preposterous fictional account - of events from centuries before - of Abraham and Hagar having been 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land, in the then-non-existent-city of Mecca, as a miracle.
This rather than accepting the perfectly historically, archaeologically, and geographically plausible account detailed in scripture.
Yet somehow that doesn't seem to communicate anything to you.
At least it will to the Muslim read-only participants out there that are seeking truth.

YOU MEAN SUPPORTED BY FABRICATED ARCHEOLOGY AND GEOGRAPHY, SPECULATION BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS. A FEW POTS AND RUINS WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH, ROMAN MAP MAKERS IS GOING TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE STUFF IN YOUR SHOVEL.

[Peter]

WANDERED? THE WIFE AND CHILD OF A PROPHET? HOW DID JESUS WALK ON WATER? WHO PARTED THE RED SEA?
WHO GAVE SAMSON HIS STRENGTH?
ARE YOU A DISBELIEVER? OR ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE TTRUTH OF ALLAH?

While you characterize YHWH's historical record as a lie, even as it is supported not only by scripture, but by archaeology and geography as well, you are stuck having to explain the Mohammedans 7th and 8th century created, contrary, preposterous fictional account - of events from centuries before - of Abraham and Hagar having been 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land, in the then-non-existent-city of Mecca, as a miracle.
This rather than accepting the perfectly historically, archaeologically, and geographically plausible account detailed in scripture.
Yet somehow that doesn't seem to communicate anything to you.
At least it will to the Muslim read-only participants out there that are seeking truth.

YOU MEAN SUPPORTED BY FABRICATED ARCHEOLOGY AND GEOGRAPHY, SPECULATION BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS. A FEW POTS AND RUINS WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH, ROMAN MAP MAKERS IS GOING TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE STUFF IN YOUR SHOVEL.

For those Muslims looking on you can see that Mujaheed's first explanation - for rejecting the very reasonable geographical account of Hagar wandering in the Wilderness of Beersheba, just south of where Abraham lived, provided in scripture, in favor of the preposterous 7th century created Mohammedan fictional account, that would require Hagar to have wandered across 1200 kilometers across harsh unknown Arabian desert, to get a drink of water - was that it must have been a miracle.

Then after seeing how that foolishness compared to the truth of scripture, next he blames the physical and unchangeable distance between the Holy Land and Mecca - that nullifies the preposterous Mohammedan 7th century fictional accounts of Hagar ever having been in Mecca - on Roman map makers!
This even as it's obvious, that the same 1200 kilometers that separate the two locations at any time throughout history, is of course the same as the 1200 kilometers that separates the two physical unmovable geographical locations today.
Thus you can see Mujaheed's distinct separation from reality.

What he has been increasingly demonstrating through his knee-jerk reaction, rather than thoughtful contemplation, is that in order for a person to remain in Mohammed's 7th century cult, one must necessarily void one's mind of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, until one's intellect becomes the equivalent of an illiterate, 7th century, southwest Arabian desert dweller.

[Mujaheed]

WANDERED? THE WIFE AND CHILD OF A PROPHET? HOW DID JESUS WALK ON WATER? WHO PARTED THE RED SEA?
WHO GAVE SAMSON HIS STRENGTH?
ARE YOU A DISBELIEVER? OR ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE TTRUTH OF ALLAH?

While you characterize YHWH's historical record as a lie, even as it is supported not only by scripture, but by archaeology and geography as well, you are stuck having to explain the Mohammedans 7th and 8th century created, contrary, preposterous fictional account - of events from centuries before - of Abraham and Hagar having been 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land, in the then-non-existent-city of Mecca, as a miracle.
This rather than accepting the perfectly historically, archaeologically, and geographically plausible account detailed in scripture.
Yet somehow that doesn't seem to communicate anything to you.
At least it will to the Muslim read-only participants out there that are seeking truth.

YOU MEAN SUPPORTED BY FABRICATED ARCHEOLOGY AND GEOGRAPHY, SPECULATION BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS. A FEW POTS AND RUINS WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH, ROMAN MAP MAKERS IS GOING TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE STUFF IN YOUR SHOVEL.

For those Muslims looking on you can see that Mujaheed's first explanation - for rejecting the very reasonable geographical account of Hagar wandering in the Wilderness of Beersheba, just south of where Abraham lived, provided in scripture, in favor of the preposterous 7th century created Mohammedan fictional account, that would require Hagar to have wandered across 1200 kilometers across harsh unknown Arabian desert, to get a drink of water - was that it must have been a miracle.

Then after seeing how that foolishness compared to the truth of scripture, next he blames the physical and unchangeable distance between the Holy Land and Mecca - that nullifies the preposterous Mohammedan 7th century fictional accounts of Hagar ever having been in Mecca - on Roman map makers!
This even as it's obvious, that the same 1200 kilometers that separate the two locations at any time throughout history, is of course the same as the 1200 kilometers that separates the two physical unmovable geographical locations today.
Thus you can see Mujaheed's distinct separation from reality.

What he has been increasingly demonstrating through his knee-jerk reaction, rather than thoughtful contemplation, is that in order for a person to remain in Mohammed's 7th century cult, one must necessarily void one's mind of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, until one's intellect becomes the equivalent of an illiterate, 7th century, southwest Arabian desert dweller.

PETER you make no sense whatsoever,
Scripture: unknown authors writing according the the knowledge available at the time, adapted by later writers to suit the time, further adaptations to correct earlier mistakes is known to have happened until the Koine greek versions translated according to numerous individual interpretations hence the plethora of versions.

Archeology: not an exact science in fact it is open to so many interpretations it is widely accepted that very broad outlines are accepted, details have differing opinions. Trying to sell me an opinion on Hagar and Ishmael based on a Biased writer (unknown and unconfirmed) then you putting truth to the unconfirmed and rather sketchy details is nothing but conjecture and does not constitute irrefutable evidence.

History is the eye of the beholder, it is an opinion and a biase depending on where you located and according to your beliefs. One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter. just because you may understand a culture one way does not mean it is actually the case.

[Peter]

PETER you make no sense whatsoever.....

That should be no surprise to onlookers, when it comes from someone who believes that the 1200 kilometers between where Abraham lived and where Mecca was eventually built, is a matter determined by Roman map makers, rather than being the physical matter of fact that it is.

[Peter]

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Indeed. One is fighting in the cause of regaining one's freedom.
An example of a terrorist is the one that engages in imperialistic conquest, to take away the freedom of others, and subjugate and enslave the formerly free people to the will of a satanic cult. Indeed Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in the history of mankind.
But that's a topic we are covering in other threads - DO NOT address it on this thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

[Mujaheed]

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Indeed. One is fighting in the cause of regaining one's freedom.
An example of a terrorist is the one that engages in imperialistic conquest, to take away the freedom of others, and subjugate and enslave the formerly free people to the will of a satanic cult. Indeed Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in the history of mankind.
But that's a topic we are covering in other threads - DO NOT address it on this thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

THIS THREAD IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON YOUR PART WHEN YOU SAY THAT HAGAR WAS NOT TAKEN BY ABRAHAM TO MAKKAH. PURE unadulterated conjecture and it has nothing to do with the burial place of Abraham. QURAN SAYS ZAM ZAM (WATER GIVEN TI HAGAR IS STILL FLOWING IN MAKKAH) THE ZAM ZAM is the purest water on earth, tested, not a single bacteria found in the well for the last One thousand  four hundred years at least. Miracle?

You the first scholar I have encountered in my 45 years as a Muslim that has ever presented the topic, and your knowledge is very limited,

Go back in history and find out who the first people were that gathered true knowledge, who crossed the Mediterranean about 1000 years before any European dared?

Yes  superiority of knowledge still exists with the Muslims, maybe not technologically but definitely religiously.

 

[Peter]

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Indeed. One is fighting in the cause of regaining one's freedom.
An example of a terrorist is the one that engages in imperialistic conquest, to take away the freedom of others, and subjugate and enslave the formerly free people to the will of a satanic cult. Indeed Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in the history of mankind.
But that's a topic we are covering in other threads - DO NOT address it on this thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

THIS THREAD IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON YOUR PART WHEN YOU SAY THAT HAGAR WAS NOT TAKEN BY ABRAHAM TO MAKKAH. PURE unadulterated conjecture and it has nothing to do with the burial place of Abraham.

My dear fellow. "PURE unadulterated conjecture" is to suggest that Abraham, Hagar, or Ishmael ever had a thing to do with where Mecca was eventually settled around the 4th century AD, since the whole preposterous notion springs purely from the 7th and 8th century created "tradition" of Mohammed's followers. That's waaaaay beyond speculation, and even beyond the wildest conjecture, and cannot possibly be characterized as other than pure unadulterated fiction. The actual historical record contained in scripture - confirmed by archaeological evidence - describes where Abraham journeyed. Indeed never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built - whichever presumed location for Mt. Sinai one measures from.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm



How would a bunch of ignorant 7th century southeast Arabian desert dwellers, have had any idea what went on 2900 years before? Perhaps they went to the library in Mecca to read about it?
Just look at what a number they did on Mohammed's genealogy!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1317.0

Indeed how could they have known the Kaaba in any way other than it had been home to some 360 idols that had been venerated by Mohammed's own pagan Quraish tribe of, moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worshipers?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1906.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

QURAN SAYS ZAM ZAM (WATER GIVEN TI HAGAR ........

And there's the rub my friend. You believe this unhistorical nonsense purely because Mohammed and his boys said it.

...... IS STILL FLOWING IN MAKKAH) THE ZAM ZAM is the purest water on earth, tested, not a single bacteria found in the well for the last One thousand  four hundred years at least. Miracle?

You the first scholar I have encountered in my 45 years as a Muslim that has ever presented the topic, and your knowledge is very limited,

Go back in history and find out who the first people were that gathered true knowledge, who crossed the Mediterranean about 1000 years before any European dared?

Yes  superiority of knowledge still exists with the Muslims, maybe not technologically but definitely religiously.

Reply regarding the well of Zamzam is split off to it's own topic.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2026.0