Hagar, Mecca, and the Umrah - Al-Safa and Al-Marwah (from Black Stone)

[Mujaheed]

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Indeed. One is fighting in the cause of regaining one's freedom.
An example of a terrorist is the one that engages in imperialistic conquest, to take away the freedom of others, and subjugate and enslave the formerly free people to the will of a satanic cult. Indeed Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in the history of mankind.
But that's a topic we are covering in other threads - DO NOT address it on this thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

THIS THREAD IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON YOUR PART WHEN YOU SAY THAT HAGAR WAS NOT TAKEN BY ABRAHAM TO MAKKAH. PURE unadulterated conjecture and it has nothing to do with the burial place of Abraham.

My dear fellow. "PURE unadulterated conjecture" is to suggest that Abraham, Hagar, or Ishmael ever had a thing to do with where Mecca was eventually settled around the 4th century AD, since the whole preposterous notion springs purely from the 7th and 8th century created "tradition" of Mohammed's followers. That's waaaaay beyond speculation, and even beyond the wildest conjecture, and cannot possibly be characterized as other than pure unadulterated fiction. The actual historical record contained in scripture - confirmed by archaeological evidence - describes where Abraham journeyed. Indeed never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built - whichever presumed location for Mt. Sinai one measures from.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm



How would a bunch of ignorant 7th century southeast Arabian desert dwellers, have had any idea what went on 2900 years before? Perhaps they went to the library in Mecca to read about it?
Just look at what a number they did on Mohammed's genealogy!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1317.0

Indeed how could they have known the Kaaba in any way other than it had been home to some 360 idols that had been venerated by Mohammed's own pagan Quraish tribe of, moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worshipers?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1906.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

QURAN SAYS ZAM ZAM (WATER GIVEN TI HAGAR ........

And there's the rub my friend. You believe this unhistorical nonsense purely because Mohammed and his boys said it.

...... IS STILL FLOWING IN MAKKAH) THE ZAM ZAM is the purest water on earth, tested, not a single bacteria found in the well for the last One thousand  four hundred years at least. Miracle?

You the first scholar I have encountered in my 45 years as a Muslim that has ever presented the topic, and your knowledge is very limited,

Go back in history and find out who the first people were that gathered true knowledge, who crossed the Mediterranean about 1000 years before any European dared?

Yes  superiority of knowledge still exists with the Muslims, maybe not technologically but definitely religiously.

Reply regarding the well of Zamzam is split off to it's own topic.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2026.0

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: I BELIEVE MUHAMMAD, the unadulterated truth from ALLAH almighty, no other book has the same mathematical precision, no other book is preserved in its original language still in use today, no other language is so clear and concise making the quran a pleasure to recite, listen to understand and act upon.

IT IS MY BELIEF, MY AKEEDDA (MY CONSTITUTION) MY BOOK THAT HAS NO DOUBT IN IT FROM MY LORD

THAT IS WHAT ALL THESE THREADS COME DOWN TO; THE WORDS OF MUHAMMAD, MESSENGER AND PROPHET OF ALLAH, AND MY COMPLETE AND 100% BELIEF IN THEM, If anyone can show me even a few verses that compares with the QURAN I will reject it immediately, but I have no doubt that only ALLAH can do that and since Prophethood has been sealed it will never happen.

YOU PUTTING YOUR TRUST IN THE WORK AND WORDS OF UNKNOWN AUTHORS, WRITING ABOUT THINGS THEY DID NOT REALLY UNDERSTAND ACCORDING TO THEIR INTELLECT AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE WHAT THE PROPHETS CAME WITH, MANY OF THE WRITINGS CONTAIN THE TRADITION AND BELIEFS PREVALENT AT THE TIME AND OVERTIME THE MEANINGS WERE DISTORTED HENCE THE NEED FOR THE PROPHETS TO COME AS WARNERS AND GUIDES BACK TO THE TRUTH.

[resistingrexmundi]

IT IS MY BELIEF, MY AKEEDDA (MY CONSTITUTION) MY BOOK THAT HAS NO DOUBT IN IT FROM MY LORD

THAT IS WHAT ALL THESE THREADS COME DOWN TO; THE WORDS OF MUHAMMAD, MESSENGER AND PROPHET OF ALLAH, AND MY COMPLETE AND 100% BELIEF IN THEM

That is it Mujaheed. You have hit the nail on the head. Your complete 100% belief in something even you cannot substantiate. The Qur'an cannot be used as proof of the Qur'an's validity. No more than my word can be proof that my word is true. That is the reason Muhammad's contemporaries continually asked for proof of his words. Which he failed miserably to provide. Let me sum it up in a nutshell. If someone comes along and claims that he has intimate details on events that happened thousands of years ago it is only logical I would ask for proof. In this case that proof would have to come from archaelogy, historical accounts, eye witnesses or a miracle. The Qur'an offers none of those. It cites itself as a miracle. Which brings us back to the same circular logic as before. Now contrast that to the fact that Jerusalem is attested to in history, archaelogy, eye witness accounts etc. Mekkah also by contrast has no history pre-dating the 4th century. It is just that simple. So for it to have been the center of mankind's worship of God it would need to show evidence of its' previous existence. But as you said you have..."complete and 100% belief in them." Which is fine for someone who doesn't mind believing something that posseses not a whit of proof. In other words conjecture. That my friend is the definition of indoctrination.

[Mujaheed]

IT IS MY BELIEF, MY AKEEDDA (MY CONSTITUTION) MY BOOK THAT HAS NO DOUBT IN IT FROM MY LORD

THAT IS WHAT ALL THESE THREADS COME DOWN TO; THE WORDS OF MUHAMMAD, MESSENGER AND PROPHET OF ALLAH, AND MY COMPLETE AND 100% BELIEF IN THEM

That is it Mujaheed. You have hit the nail on the head. Your complete 100% belief in something even you cannot substantiate. The Qur'an cannot be used as proof of the Qur'an's validity. No more than my word can be proof that my word is true. That is the reason Muhammad's contemporaries continually asked for proof of his words. Which he failed miserably to provide. Let me sum it up in a nutshell. If someone comes along and claims that he has intimate details on events that happened thousands of years ago it is only logical I would ask for proof. In this case that proof would have to come from archaelogy, historical accounts, eye witnesses or a miracle. The Qur'an offers none of those. It cites itself as a miracle. Which brings us back to the same circular logic as before. Now contrast that to the fact that Jerusalem is attested to in history, archaelogy, eye witness accounts etc. Mekkah also by contrast has no history pre-dating the 4th century. It is just that simple. So for it to have been the center of mankind's worship of God it would need to show evidence of its' previous existence. But as you said you have..."complete and 100% belief in them." Which is fine for someone who doesn't mind believing something that posseses not a whit of proof. In other words conjecture. That my friend is the definition of indoctrination.

Dear Resistingrexmundi I would have to explain to you my 25 years of research and knowledge and proof and when I try I get banned and accused of blasphemy. The Islamic truth about the Prophets (I Obviously have both sides and choose Islam as many do) is that it is one continuous line, From Adam, we (all of us) have the information from Abraham to Muhammad and looking at that history it is clear as to the Movements, the geography and the sequence of events happened from ARABIA to Jerusalem and back to Arabia. Did you ever ask yourself what the Three Jewish tribes were doing in Madina?

DID you ever ask yourself why a Greek or Latin version is the only accepted version of the OT and NT by all churches, and why only about 40% OF THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS IS ACCEPTED AS CORRESPONDING TO TEXTS TODAY?

EVER ASK IF THERE IS EVIDENCE FOR MOSES IN EGYPT AND WHY MISRI A PLACES NAME IS TRANSLATED AS EGYPT? WHAT PLACES NAME UNDERGOES SUCH A RADICAL CHANGE FROM EGYPTIAN TO ARABIC?

EVER ASK YOURSELF WHY THE MAIN THEME OF THE BIBLE IS "WORSHIP YOUR LORD THE GOD WHO IS ONE?

THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IS FOUND AND THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IS BELIEVED TO BE FOUND BASED ON CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE. YOU DONT HAVE EVIDENCE FOR JESUS BUT I MUST BELIEVE YOU HAVE EVIDENCE FOR MOSES AND ABRAHAM? STOP BEING SO NAIEVE.

[resistingrexmundi]

Dear Resistingrexmundi I would have to explain to you my 25 years of research and knowledge and proof and when I try I get banned and accused of blasphemy. The Islamic truth about the Prophets (I Obviously have both sides and choose Islam as many do) is that it is one continuous line, From Adam, we (all of us) have the information from Abraham to Muhammad and looking at that history it is clear as to the Movements, the geography and the sequence of events happened from ARABIA to Jerusalem and back to Arabia

You got banned for spamming and ignoring responses as well as a foul mouth. I have also pointed out to you that archaelogy does not support your claim. The Bible as well as history attests to life starting in the fertile crescent and moving out from there.

 Did you ever ask yourself what the Three Jewish tribes were doing in Madina?

The diaspora caused by the Assyrian's and later the Romans. This again is attested in history and archaelogy.

DID you ever ask yourself why a Greek or Latin version is the only accepted version of the OT and NT by all churches, and why only about 40% OF THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS IS ACCEPTED AS CORRESPONDING TO TEXTS TODAY?

No because the OT I use and every biblical scholar uses is based on Hebrew with a little aramaic. And the Dead Sea Scrolls affirm the integrity of the OT scribes. The scroll containing Isaiah is almost identical to what we have today with only spelling and grammar errors but nothing that alters the meaning of the text.

EVER ASK IF THERE IS EVIDENCE FOR MOSES IN EGYPT AND WHY MISRI A PLACES NAME IS TRANSLATED AS EGYPT? WHAT PLACES NAME UNDERGOES SUCH A RADICAL CHANGE FROM EGYPTIAN TO ARABIC?

Egypt is in Egypt. No amount of twisting will change that. It isn't in some area of Arabia. Again history and archaelogy are on my side on this one.

EVER ASK YOURSELF WHY THE MAIN THEME OF THE BIBLE IS "WORSHIP YOUR LORD THE GOD WHO IS ONE?

The main theme of the Bible is love your God.

 Mat 22:37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 

 Mat 22:38   This is the first and great commandment. 

 Mat 22:39   And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 

Yahweh wants a relationship not mindless devotion. Worship comes as an act of love of God. Not a compulsory act of domination.

THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IS FOUND AND THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IS BELIEVED TO BE FOUND BASED ON CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE. YOU DONT HAVE EVIDENCE FOR JESUS BUT I MUST BELIEVE YOU HAVE EVIDENCE FOR MOSES AND ABRAHAM? STOP BEING SO NAIEVE.

As I have told you already the NT is the most well attested ancient document in the world. There are over 5300 partial and whole manuscripts dating from the first three centuries. There are tens of thousands from their on out. The only one who is being naive is the one who believes a man with a 23 year record, who could not read, had never been outside of Arabia, who performed no miracle to substantiate his claim, who got persons from history crossed in his stories (Nimrod and Abraham), who was caught giving false revelation (satanic verses) and was too much of a coward to face his own enemies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AZsOSEdAZw and the person who believes those living in the 7th and 8th centuries had a better idea of history than the people from those times.

[Peter]

Dear Resistingrexmundi I would have to explain to you my 25 years of research and knowledge and proof and when I try I get banned and accused of blasphemy.

That is a foolish and transparent LIE. If we banned people for blasphemy Muslims would never have been able to post in this forum at all. We don't even ban you for your blizzard of false accusations, name calling and insulting of forum members. We leave them as your personal testament so forum read-only participants can see what you are made of.

What you believe and promote is blasphemy against the 1600 year record of God to mankind, primarily and most importantly because you rail against the blood that Jesus Christ shed for us, purely because Satan through his false prophet Mohammed, denied it.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You follow the false prophet Mohammed who taught the EXACT OPPOSITE, through his completely unhistorical nonsense (even painting Nimrod and Abraham as contemporaries when they didn't live within hundreds of years of each other), warped and perverted versions of the prophets - even calling Alexander the Great a prophet when he was perhaps the most consummate pagan history even declaring himself a demi-god - and poorly plagiarized versions of Arabian and Hebrew fables, and outright foolishness, so everything swimming around in your head regarding Mohammed's alter ego "Allah" - which was also the name of a pagan Arabian deity - is blasphemy against YHWH. No Muslim has yet been banned for blasphemy. However we should perhaps ban one for sheer and utter foolishness.

You have been banned for being non-responsive, for not producing substantive and related replies to our replies to you, and for not supporting your preposterous claims - indeed outright refusal to support the pure unmitigated garbage you have posted in here.

[edit add later - And you are banned again for more evasive and non-responsive posting.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2064.msg8633#msg8633 ]

[Peter]

Go learn to quote. 278 posts, ignoring our continuous begging and pleading, is more than enough time. Goes way beyond sheer laziness. Every goofed up post will be moved to your spam until you do.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

[Peter]

On your return do not begin posting anywhere but to the two questions asked regarding YOUR TOPIC thread, at this link, until your permissions are increased.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2064.msg8635#msg8635

[Peter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfSXkSxl5gs&feature=fvst

The problem with this "story" as he rightly labeled it, is that it was created entirely within the 7th and 8th centuries AD by a bunch of semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers, without reference to prior historical record.
Additionally, there is no historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD.
Please don't take my word for it. Google it.
watch?v=Bq8VOZbuu-Q
How did Abraham commute the 1200 kilometers from Hebron?
watch?v=Xh5E--IlCKk
PeteWaldo 1 second ago

[Peter]

Black Stone Veneration at the Kaaba in Mecca
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2444.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGyWs__Y-rU