Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All
General Category => History, Archaeology, and Geography of Mecca & Islamic Faith => Topic started by: Mujaheed on November 08, 2010, 10:02:09 AM
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By Dr. Rafat Amari - Islam: In Light of History
(Typed out here by Pete. Any typographical errors are mine.)
New web page
page 100-103
The well which God showed to Hagar in the Wilderness of Beersheba was not the well of Zamzam at Mecca.
We can read in Genesis that Ishmael lived in the region south of Canaan near his nephew, Esau. In fact, the Bible goes into some detail about their relationship, showing that they were in constant contact with one other. And Ishmael would have had to live there for many years, because Esau married Ishmael's daughter, according to Genesis 28.9. At that time, when Ishmael and his mother were sent away from Abraham's house in Beersheba, South of Palestine, they could not have walked more than 50 or 100 miles before the skin of water she carried was empty. Let's read the story as told in the book of Genesis.
Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against [him] a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against [him], and lift up her voice, and wept.
(Map of Beersheba http://bibleatlas.org/full/beersheba.htm)
19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
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This map section inserted into Dr. Amari's paper by Pete
(map locating the wilderness of Paran) http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-wilderness-of-paran.htm
(map Jerusalem to Mt. Paran) http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-mt-sinai-paran-jerusalem-dawn-from-seir-north.jpg
click on the maps to enlarge
(http://www.petewaldo.com/04bba5c0.png)
(http://www.petewaldo.com/040d3b20.jpg)
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These words are from Genesis, chapter 31, verses 14 through 21. Look at the facts concerning Ishmael and his mother. The well which God showed Hagar was in Beersheba, not very far from where Abraham had previously lived. It was in South Canaan. The well that the Lord showed to Hagar could not have been the well of Zamzam at Mecca, as Muslims claim, because the well of Mecca is more than a thousand miles from Beersheba. Obviously, Hagar could not possibly have been carrying a water supply for a thousand-mile walk. Even if she had food and water, the great distance between Hebron and Mecca was through an uninhabited desert, untraveled in her time, without any city or village for her to rest in. She would have needed more than a year to walk to her destination. She would have been an unescorted woman, traveling by foot. She would have had no caravan to carry her and no directions from previous travelers.
We know that the first record of the Egyptians about Yemen was in the 14th century B.C., centuries after Hagar's time. It was only in that 14th century B.C. that the Egyptians knew there were people living in Yemen. Those Egyptians gave us the first historical record about that land. The oldest report on southern Arabia came from the times of the Pharaoh, Tuthmosis III, in the middle of the 14th century B.C.2 It was not until the 12th century B.C. that the first kingdom in Yemen started. That was called the Sabaean Kingdom, about nine centuries after Abraham lived. So you see, Before the appearance of the Sabaeans, the desert between Palestine and Yemen was never crossed by any caravan. Also, the cities which were built on the caravan road appeared very late in history, because the land route was not adopted by the Yemeni until much later. According to scholars and historians, a marine route was adopted before a land route, because marine travel was faster and less dangerous than land travel. Scholars do not believe the marine route was adopted before the 12th century B.C., and the land route along the Red Sea was not developed until the 3rd century B.C.
Thus, saying that Hagar and Ishmael crossed the desert to Mecca is a ridiculous statement, which can be accepted only by persons who ignore completely the history of Arabia. In Hagar's time, there was no relationship between Palestine and Yemen there was no kingdom known in Yemen' and no civilization which existed in Western Arabia in the regions where Mecca was eventually built. As I stated before, the land route from Yemen toward the North of Arabia by the Red sea started only in the 3rd century B.C. Since then, some villages have been built as stations for the caravans to refresh themselves. Prior to that time, caravans avoided that dangerous desert. The Yemeni used to sail the Red Sea, avoiding this long and dangerous deserted segment to reach ports near Ilat, which is now a seaport in Israel near Aqaba, the Jordanian port. Some cities along the Red Sea were established only after the land route flourished around the 1st century A.D. But not Mecca.
Greek and Roman geographers walked the land route after it started in the 3rd century B.C. They mentioned the villages and cities which were established along the Red Sea, where Mecca was eventually built. They mentioned the tiny and trivial villages and stations where caravans stopped. They mentioned each temple which existed in the regions of West Arabia. Not one mentioned Mecca, or that a temple existed in the area where Mecca was later built.
Geographers also described the tribes and people living in West Arabia. But, when describing the area where Mecca was later built, they all said that it was an uninhabitable region of sand where only dangerous nomads moved from time to time. There were not real settlements or villages. We have a clear picture of this fact from the times of Herodotus, the famous Greek historian and geographer who lived in the 5th century B.C., and throughout all consecutive centuries after Herodotus until the 4th century A.D. During this span of time, several Greek and Roman historians walked that route, and also wrote about it.
We clearly see historical documentation that Mecca didn't exist before the Christian era, nor in the first few centuries after Christ lived on earth. This definitely refutes the Islamic claim that Mecca was in existence at the time of Abraham, and also refutes the claim of the Qur'an that the temple at Mecca was built by Ishmael and Abraham. Thereby, history excludes any connection between the pagan temple and the Biblical monotheistic faith which Abraham and his son Isaac, and Isaac's descendants, were entrusted with until the coming of Christ, who is the fulfillment of the revelation given to Abraham and to all the prophets of the Old Testament.
DEAR PETER, PLEASE PASS THIS INFORMATION ON TO RAFAT AMARI
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENTION THAT A PORTION OF THE VAST AMOUNT OF LITERATURE IN ARABIC HAS BEEN TRANSLATED FOR OUR CONVENIENCE, THE PROOF TO BACK UP MUSLIMS ABOUT ABRAHAM< SARAH< HAGAR AND ISMAEL.
THIS IS THE REAL STORY OF THE BIBLE ACCOUNT OF ABRAHAM.ON THIS WEBSITE.
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http://www.petewaldo.com/mecca.htm
Here is a PDF tract on the subject. http://petewaldo.com/m28.pdf (http://petewaldo.com/m28.pdf)
Though I haven't found the time YET, so don't know exactly how they work, I would encourage all forum members to create a free Google website to bring this vital subject to the world. I don't believe there is a greater tool to help Muslims overcome Mohammed's 7th century religion. Some may have an easier time approaching the Gospel only after they have overcome Islam. This is the front line in the war on terror/Islam.
Please see links half-way down the page for many more forum threads on the history of Makkah.
Mecca - Makkah
This page is of vital importance to everyone - whether religious or not - and is of particular importance to Mohammed's followers.
Mecca or Makkah, is the historical and geographical epicenter of Islam. All practicing Muslims on earth prostrate themselves toward the Kaaba in Mecca five times a day. Every Muslim is obliged to travel to Mecca, and perform the Islamic ritual of the Hajj (http://www.petewaldo.com/hajj_umrah.htm) at least once in their lifetime, because it is the "fifth pillar" of Islam. Islamic tradition teaches that the Kaaba, around which Islam revolves, is located in the center of the world and was the first temple on earth. This tradition holds that it was built by Adam (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=kaaba+built+by+adam&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=f42cedd875d403c4) and later rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael (http://www.petewaldo.com/hagar_ishmael.htm).
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
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JERUSALEM IS MUCH MORE THAN JUST ONE NIGHT JOURNEY IN ISLAM, THE NIGHT JOURNEY WAS TO MASJIDUL AQSA.
What other role did Jerusalem play IN THE FOUNDATION of Mohammed's 7th century religion, besides Mohammed's fanciful and UNWITNESSED night journey on a flying donkey-mule, and his lie that he prayed in a non-existent temple?
The only role Jerusalem played in Islam was much later on after being enslaved by Mohammedan conquest.
YOU MIGHT WANT TO VISIT the follwing website before you go any further with your conjecture
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
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bump
The following website disagrees with the EUROPEAN CREATION OF FANTASY THEY CALL HISTORY
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
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* The Classical Writers and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* Archaeology and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The Bible and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/mecca_bible.htm)- By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/star.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/roleoftemple.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
* The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
Please read the article at this link that includes footnotes and such.
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm
Please scrunch your browser in at the sides to make the lines shorter and more readable.
Bolding in text below Pete's
THE HISTORY AND ARCHAEOLOGY OF ARABIA SHOW THAT MECCA DID NOT EXIST BEFORE THE ADVENT OF CHRISTIANITY.
By Dr. Rafat Amari
The richness of the archaeological findings and inscriptions of many regions of Arabia.
After examining all the records concerning the kingdoms and cities located north of Mecca, we conclude that the reigns of most of the rulers are well-documented. We know about the wars in which they were engaged, and the names of their gods. Mecca is conspicuous by its absence. Even though Muslims claim Mecca dates back to the time of Abraham, not one record indicates its existence at any time before Christ.
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
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"Abstract:
By the end of the last century, new stunning hypothesis emerged amongst theologians and historians advocating that the prevailing common understanding of the Israeli prophets' geographical homelands and journey routes were radically erroneous. The new hypothesis suggests that Asir province (situated in the southern part of Al-Surat Mountains, stretching alongside the western coastal border of Arabia, bounded between Yemen’s northern borders and the holy city of Makkah) was indeed the actual geographical theater which accommodated most of the Israeli prophets’ birthplaces, revelations, preaching, and burials. Subsequent research work narrowed down the prophets lands to Makkah county situated within the Hijaz and Asir Surat Mountains. This holy city emerged as the real and the only homeland of Abraham, Lot, Sara, Hagar and Ishmael as revealed in this paper. This whole hypothesis stemmed from the inconceivable inconsistencies in the biblical accounts of geographical landscapes traversed by the prophets, besides the lack of any supporting archeological evidences to date either in Palestine, Syria, Iraq or Egypt."
Gwaffaw, gwaffaw, guaffaw!!!!! Will the poor fellow stop at nothing?
If the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed would have bothered riding his flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple, that he lied about praying in, in Jerusalem? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fanciful flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
"In his book entitled "The Bible Came from Arabia" published in 1984, Kamal Al Salibi caused a stir. He concluded that the events and narratives of the Old Testament did not originate in Palestine as internationally accepted but rather in the province of Asir, in the south-west of Arabia, precisely between Makkah and Yemen."
I see. So then the temple mount .........
(http://st2008.trincoll.edu/~mdearin2/Temple_Mount_aerial_tb_n031900.jpg)
and it's temple that YHWH had His people build in Jerusalem.....
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Jerusalem_Modell_BW_2.JPG/275px-Jerusalem_Modell_BW_2.JPG)
was in actuality the Kaaba that the pagan Arabian deity named "Allah" had the Quraish build in the early 5th century AD!
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1401247982_3db4faa70e.jpg)
Sorry my friend. Turning from 7th century fiction to 1984 fantasy will never magically create thousands of years of historical or archaeological record of Mecca.
And even more preposterously, THE Holy Land will never be moved 1200 miles, to Mecca!
You see your problem stems from believing that just because people are willing to say something, you should believe it - like believing Mohammed.
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First, you need to learn how to properly quote. Second that research has left out key factors. For instance. Abraham was from Ur of Chaldees. This land has a history dating back millenia that can be verified. Their were no overland trade routes at that time for Abraham to have used to get from Ur of Chaldees to a Mecca that didn't exist at the time, as such no water well sources to use on this supposed trip, and it completely negates the fact that their is NO ARCHAELOGICAL EVIDENCE Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD. And that doesn't even mention the fact that Ur of the Chaldees was located in Mesopotamia along the Kebar river in what is now modern day Iraq. As opposed to 300 miles south of Mecca which the research claims. I would also point out the research itself admits...
None of the present research work conducted an in-depth analytical study in the ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia.
So swing and a miss.
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YOU MIGHT WANT TO VISIT the follwing website before you go any further with your conjecture
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
Well even these guys admit this one bit of truth
None of the present research work conducted an in-depth analytical study in the ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia.
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Sorry my friend. Turning from 7th century fantasy to 1984 fantasy will never magically create thousands of years of historical or archaeological record of Mecca.
And even more preposterously, THE Holy Land will never be moved 1200 miles, to Mecca!
You see your problem stems from your willingness to believe something just because someone was willing to say it - like believing Mohammed for example.
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YOU MIGHT WANT TO VISIT the follwing website before you go any further with your conjecture
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
Well even these guys admit this one bit of truth
None of the present research work conducted an in-depth analytical study in the ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia.
LET ME EXPLAIN THE WORDS YOU READING: NO one has provided any work that disproves that the Israelis are actually Arabs!, none of the current work, least of which Rafat Amari, can dispute that the Israelis are actually Arabs, If you bother to Read further the writer goes on to explain why he is saying that the Bani Israel is actually ARABS!!! NABI EBRAHEEM IS AND ARAB, NABI ISGAAK, NABI YACOOB (JACOB RENAMED ISRAEL) IS AN ARAB. NABI MUSA IS AN ARAB AND NABI DAWOOD IS AN ARAB!!! BANI ISRAEL REFERS TO CHILDREN OF THE PERSON ISRAEL AND NOT THE LAND (FALLACY THAT BECAME A FACT)
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First, you need to learn how to properly quote. Second that research has left out key factors. For instance. Their were no overland trade routes at that time for Abraham to have used, as such no water sources to use on this supposed trip, and it completely negates the fact that their is NO ARCHAELOGICAL EVIDENCE Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD. And that doesn't even mention the fact that Ur of the Chaldees was located in Mesopotamia along the Kebar river in what is now modern day Iraq. As opposed to 300 miles south of Mecca which the research claims. I would also point out the research itself admits...
None of the present research work conducted an in-depth analytical study in the ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia.
So swing and a miss.
WHAT HE IS SAYING THAT ALL YOUR ASSUMPTIONS THUS FAR HAS BEEN BASED ON FLAWED MISGUIDED INFORMATION, PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE AS I CAN SEE YOU STOPPED AT THIS LINE> WHAT THE ARTICLE SAYS IS THAT THE ENTIRE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT FROM ADAM TO MOSES TAKES PLACE IN ARABIA AND THE EXODUS IS TO JERUSALEM FROM ARABIA AFTER A TYRANT RULER EMERGES IN ARABIA.
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE>
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"Abstract:
By the end of the last century, new stunning hypothesis emerged amongst theologians and historians advocating that the prevailing common understanding of the Israeli prophets' geographical homelands and journey routes were radically erroneous. The new hypothesis suggests that Asir province (situated in the southern part of Al-Surat Mountains, stretching alongside the western coastal border of Arabia, bounded between Yemen’s northern borders and the holy city of Makkah) was indeed the actual geographical theater which accommodated most of the Israeli prophets’ birthplaces, revelations, preaching, and burials. Subsequent research work narrowed down the prophets lands to Makkah county situated within the Hijaz and Asir Surat Mountains. This holy city emerged as the real and the only homeland of Abraham, Lot, Sara, Hagar and Ishmael as revealed in this paper. This whole hypothesis stemmed from the inconceivable inconsistencies in the biblical accounts of geographical landscapes traversed by the prophets, besides the lack of any supporting archeological evidences to date either in Palestine, Syria, Iraq or Egypt."
Gwaffaw, gwaffaw, guaffaw!!!!! Will the poor fellow stop at nothing? Has he no shame?
If the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed would have bothered riding his flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent temple), that he lied about praying in, in Jerusalem? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fanciful flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
"In his book entitled "The Bible Came from Arabia" published in 1984, Kamal Al Salibi caused a stir. He concluded that the events and narratives of the Old Testament did not originate in Palestine as internationally accepted but rather in the province of Asir, in the south-west of Arabia, precisely between Makkah and Yemen."
I see. So then the temple mount .........
(http://st2008.trincoll.edu/~mdearin2/Temple_Mount_aerial_tb_n031900.jpg)
and it's temple that YHWH had His people build in Jerusalem.....
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Jerusalem_Modell_BW_2.JPG/275px-Jerusalem_Modell_BW_2.JPG)
was in actuality the Kaaba that the pagan Arabian deity named "Allah" had the Quraish build in the early 5th century AD!
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1401247982_3db4faa70e.jpg)
Sorry my friend. Turning from 7th century fiction to 1984 fantasy will never magically create thousands of years of historical or archaeological record of Mecca.
And even more preposterously, THE Holy Land will never be moved 1200 miles, to Mecca!
You see your problem stems from your willingness to believe something just because someone was willing to say it - like believing Mohammed for example.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOUR AND READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE YOU SEEM TO HAVE AS U USUALLY DO GO OFF ON CONJECTURE BEFORE YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO SEE THE TRUTH!!
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Sorry my friend. Turning from 7th century fantasy to 1984 fantasy will never magically create thousands of years of historical or archaeological record of Mecca.
And even more preposterously, THE Holy Land will never be moved 1200 miles, to Mecca!
You see your problem stems from your willingness to believe something just because someone was willing to say it - like believing Mohammed for example.
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE!, YOUR CONJECTURE IS AGAIN OVERRIDING THE ABILITY TO FIND THE TRUTH.
THE ISRAELIS ARE ARABS, THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNTS TOOK PLACE IN ARABIA< THE EXODUS TOOK PLACE TOO JERUSALEM FROM MAKKAH, YOU FLEE FROM YOUR HOMELAND NOT TOO A HOMELAND!!!
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Sorry my friend. Turning from 7th century fantasy to 1984 fantasy will never magically create thousands of years of historical or archaeological record of Mecca.
And even more preposterously, THE Holy Land will never be moved 1200 miles, to Mecca!
You see your problem stems from your willingness to believe something just because someone was willing to say it - like believing Mohammed for example.
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE!, YOUR CONJECTURE IS AGAIN OVERRIDING THE ABILITY TO FIND THE TRUTH.
THE ISRAELIS ARE ARABS, THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNTS TOOK PLACE IN ARABIA< THE EXODUS TOOK PLACE TOO JERUSALEM FROM MAKKAH, YOU FLEE FROM YOUR HOMELAND NOT TOO A HOMELAND!!!
My friend, if the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed would have bothered riding his flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent temple), that he lied about praying in, in Jerusalem? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fanciful flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
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This post is copied here. To comment on it on it's own thread to avoid redundant posting please go to this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2026.0
One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
My friend, where are YOUR SCHOLARS presenting evidence that Mohammed's religion ever existed before Mohammed?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
That is of course, from other than the 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction, labeled "tradition".
Go back in history and find out who the first people were that gathered true knowledge, who crossed the Mediterranean about 1000 years before any European dared?
Yes superiority of knowledge still exists with the Muslims, ......
This post is copied here. To comment on it on it's own thread to avoid redundant posting please go to this link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2026.0
HERE ARE THE SCHOLARS AND PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE>
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
[/font][/font][/font][/color]
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Go learn to quote.
I am going to consolidate all this into one thread so no need to post it multiple times.
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Go learn to quote.
I am going to consolidate all this into one thread so no need to post it multiple times.
THANK YOU
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Let me know if you want a different title for your thread.
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My friend, if the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1713.0) Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.
So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Then he and his flying donkey-mule flew off to heaven, from the rock on the temple mount, to have a powwow with the prophets.
Remember, Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!"
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YOU MIGHT WANT TO VISIT the follwing website before you go any further with your conjecture
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
Well even these guys admit this one bit of truth
None of the present research work conducted an in-depth analytical study in the ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia.
LET ME EXPLAIN THE WORDS YOU READING: NO one has provided any work that disproves that the Israelis are actually Arabs!, none of the current work, least of which Rafat Amari, can dispute that the Israelis are actually Arabs, If you bother to Read further the writer goes on to explain why he is saying that the Bani Israel is actually ARABS!!! NABI EBRAHEEM IS AND ARAB, NABI ISGAAK, NABI YACOOB (JACOB RENAMED ISRAEL) IS AN ARAB. NABI MUSA IS AN ARAB AND NABI DAWOOD IS AN ARAB!!! BANI ISRAEL REFERS TO CHILDREN OF THE PERSON ISRAEL AND NOT THE LAND (FALLACY THAT BECAME A FACT)
Let me explain something to you. As I pointed out before Abraham came from Ur of Chaldees, which was in Mesopotamia, which is modern day Iraq. That is a far cry from Arabia let alone 300 miles south of Mecca. Furthermore such speculation is void of facts as I have shown you given their is NO HISTORICAL OR ARCHAELOGICAL record of Mecca prior to 4th century AD and those words you tried to correct me on admit that the PRESENT research work they were conducting doesn't take any ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia. That is a clear cut statement. Later the site says this to which you refer
In addition to addressing the above issues, this paper concludes that Arabic historical literature do contains substantial evidences indeed supporting the hypothesis in question.
But for the reasons stated above this hypothesis fails miserably. So you are left with research that doesn't prove anything and a hypothesis that can't. You can twist it to suit your mind if you wish but that is just what you are doing.
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WHAT HE IS SAYING THAT ALL YOUR ASSUMPTIONS THUS FAR HAS BEEN BASED ON FLAWED MISGUIDED INFORMATION, PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE AS I CAN SEE YOU STOPPED AT THIS LINE> WHAT THE ARTICLE SAYS IS THAT THE ENTIRE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT FROM ADAM TO MOSES TAKES PLACE IN ARABIA AND THE EXODUS IS TO JERUSALEM FROM ARABIA AFTER A TYRANT RULER EMERGES IN ARABIA.
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE>
And what I have pointed out to you is that this man is presenting a hypothesis that has gained NO support since its' publication in 1984. The reason is a hypothesis will always remain a hypothesis until their is historical or archaelogical evidence to support the hypothesis. NO SUCH EVIDENCE has been found. Peter has already addressed the more obvious problems with this hypothesis.
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Sorry my friend. Turning from 7th century fantasy to 1984 fantasy will never magically create thousands of years of historical or archaeological record of Mecca.
And even more preposterously, THE Holy Land will never be moved 1200 miles, to Mecca!
You see your problem stems from your willingness to believe something just because someone was willing to say it - like believing Mohammed for example.
YOU DID NOT READ ARTICLE< DID YOU, YOU GLANCED OVER IT AND STOPPED AT THE LINE OF THE PUBLICATION!!!
READ THE ARTICLE AND MAKE YOUR COMMENTS.
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My friend, if the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1713.0) Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.
So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Then he and his flying donkey-mule flew off to heaven, from the rock on the temple mount, to have a powwow with the prophets.
Remember, Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!"
Jerusalem- means Holy Sanctuary, and it is not an are protected by ALLAH, it is sacred but unlike MAKKAH housing the beit'u ALLAH (HOUSE OF ALLAH) Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]
The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did) the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!
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YOU MIGHT WANT TO VISIT the follwing website before you go any further with your conjecture
THE REAL STORY CAN BE FOUND AT
http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334 (http://www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334)
Well even these guys admit this one bit of truth
None of the present research work conducted an in-depth analytical study in the ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia.
LET ME EXPLAIN THE WORDS YOU READING: NO one has provided any work that disproves that the Israelis are actually Arabs!, none of the current work, least of which Rafat Amari, can dispute that the Israelis are actually Arabs, If you bother to Read further the writer goes on to explain why he is saying that the Bani Israel is actually ARABS!!! NABI EBRAHEEM IS AND ARAB, NABI ISGAAK, NABI YACOOB (JACOB RENAMED ISRAEL) IS AN ARAB. NABI MUSA IS AN ARAB AND NABI DAWOOD IS AN ARAB!!! BANI ISRAEL REFERS TO CHILDREN OF THE PERSON ISRAEL AND NOT THE LAND (FALLACY THAT BECAME A FACT)
Let me explain something to you. As I pointed out before Abraham came from Ur of Chaldees, which was in Mesopotamia, which is modern day Iraq. That is a far cry from Arabia let alone 300 miles south of Mecca. Furthermore such speculation is void of facts as I have shown you given their is NO HISTORICAL OR ARCHAELOGICAL record of Mecca prior to 4th century AD and those words you tried to correct me on admit that the PRESENT research work they were conducting doesn't take any ancient Arabic historical literatures to provide Arabic historical evidences confirming that the Israeli prophets were actually Arabic people who reside in Arabia. That is a clear cut statement. Later the site says this to which you refer
In addition to addressing the above issues, this paper concludes that Arabic historical literature do contains substantial evidences indeed supporting the hypothesis in question.
But for the reasons stated above this hypothesis fails miserably. So you are left with research that doesn't prove anything and a hypothesis that can't. You can twist it to suit your mind if you wish but that is just what you are doing.
I Suppose the language and interpretation and lineage are all made up by the writer? Misr is Egypt, no evidence exists in that regard, ask yourself a Question, how would you rewrite the history if you wer a pagan Greek or Roman and your knowledge was limited to that region, would you not speculate on the geography?
I know you did not read all 48 pages,
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I Suppose the language and interpretation and lineage are all made up by the writer? Misr is Egypt, no evidence exists in that regard, ask yourself a Question, how would you rewrite the history if you wer a pagan Greek or Roman and your knowledge was limited to that region, would you not speculate on the geography?
I know you did not read all 48 pages,
We do not have to speculate on where Egypt was. There is an overabundance of archaelogical evidence on where it was and still is today. Furthermore Greeks and Romans traveled the world and created the most advanced roads the ancient world had ever seen. They were not limited to their geographic location. They knew from first hand experience where Egypt, Israel and even Arabia was. The only one who was limited to their region was people like Muhammad and the followers who created a whole history of the world in the 7th and 8th centuries. Furthermore who do you think had better knowledge of their areas, the people who lived in them at the time the events took place or some writers hundreds of miles away centuries removed from the events in question? As far as the article I am about half way through it and I will finish it in time. I have other obligations that demand my time. But even so what I have read so far is so laughably wrong I doubt I will be convinced. Pete and I have already outlined huge problems with this man's HYPOTHESIS. Namely the lack of evidence for Mecca existing before the 4th century AD. Throw in the abundance of evidence for Egypt, Israel and Ur's location then this hypothesis is a joke at best and bad scholarship at worst. It is yet another person's vain attempt to reconcile 7th and 8th century fiction with actual evidence.
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Jerusalem- means Holy Sanctuary, and it is not an are protected by ALLAH, it is sacred but unlike MAKKAH housing the beit'u ALLAH (HOUSE OF ALLAH) Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]
Jerusalem means city of Peace. And furthermore Yahweh foretold its' destruction as punishment on numerous occasions. A citiy's protection has no bearing on its' importance as a holy sight. Also you have just shown something we have been trying to tell you. Jerusalem is indeed old. It has archaelogical and historical evidence to support its' claims. Mecca does not. It only dates back to the 4th century AD at best. That is the whole point. If Mecca were the epicenter of God's worship their should be history and archaelogy to back it up. Not just a bunch of 7th and 8th century claims.
The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did) the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!
First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars. And yes it is a hypothesis as I have shown you. The guy even admits as much at the start of the article. So start answering some questions.
1. If no historical or archaelogical evidence exists to prove Mecca existed before 4 AD how could it have been the epicenter of God's worship?
2. If Muhammad did not leave his bed how did he supposedly visit "the farthest mosque"?
3. What Temple did Muhammad visit, enter and pray at before ascending to heaven?
4. Seeing that the Quran mentions a journey to a Mosque that did not exist during the lifetime of Muhammad, how can you consider the Quran to be 100% the word of God?
5.In light of the fact that both the Quran and the Islamic traditions contain this historical error, how can you trust either source to provide you with reliable information on the life of Muhammad and the first Muslims?
You have shown a pattern of posting and making accusations. I have answered your questions. Please show common courtesy and start by answering these.
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First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.
And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).
Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.
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First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.
And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).
Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.
Kind of stuck then aren't they considering Aisha said his body never left the bed. Given Muhammad's lack of knowledge about the area we could then logically conclude he was either delusional or lying.
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My friend, if the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1713.0) Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.
So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Then he and his flying donkey-mule flew off to heaven, from the rock on the temple mount, to have a powwow with the prophets.
Remember, Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!"
Jerusalem- means Holy Sanctuary, and it is not an are protected by ALLAH, it is sacred but unlike MAKKAH housing the beit'u ALLAH (HOUSE OF ALLAH)
Completely non-responsive post, but I will indulge this unrelated subject for the benefit of Muslim read-only participants with open hearts and minds that are genuinely seeking the truth.
The temple in Jerusalem was torn down - every stone - just as Jesus prophesied.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
The reason for the prophecy, of course, is because the Messiah was in the process of heralding a new covenant, and atonement of sin is through His shed blood, replacing the animal sacrifices in the temple (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=atonement+sin&t=KJV) of the the old covenant.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
The temple of God was indeed rebuilt.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
And that's just what the Messiah did through His death and resurrection.
In the Christian era there is only one temple of God.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
Not the Quraish's pagan kaaba and their black stone moon god idol - but the corporate body of Christ is the temple of God in the Christian era.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
"Through the Spirit"
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
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Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]
The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did) the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!
NOW NO MORE OBFUSCATION READ THE POST AGAIN.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2064.msg8607#msg8607
"....why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?"
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Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]
The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did) the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!
NOW NO MORE OBFUSCATION READ THE POST AGAIN.
"....why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?"
Please read accounts of the mi'raag before attempting to comment instead of taking Hadith out of context.
islam is not separate or a stand alone religion, all its principles are based on the previous prophettic traditions and teachings. Your attempt to show archeologically from Greeks and Roman politicians that were very strategic in the translation of the OT is not and accurate record as many a scholar has proven, false sites and unproven claims abound from the OT yet you persist with arguments based on absurdity as it is what you prefer to believe despite proof that gives credible evidence of the Arabian account.
I personally don't need archeological conjecture as it is a science of guess work and differing scholarly opinions, I don't take the word of Roman and Greek Pagans, Jesus warned of the Scribes and Pharisees writing in his name, I cannot take the word of a conjecturer like Rafat Amari as he has an hypothesis with absolutely no archeological evidence and bases his work on PAGAN HISTORIANS BASED IN ALEXANDRIA NO LESS< BUSY TRANSLATING THE OT INTO PAGAN GREEK.
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Your post is non-responsive to the questions raised by YOUR TOPIC. You were warned (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632). That's it. Since 2 day bans haven't quite helped you see that you need to answer questions, rather than obfuscating and being entirely non-responsive, a 5 day ban is in order.
Upon your return do not stray from this thread until you are given the OK. Give direct and succinct replies to the questions, and to subsequent replies to your replies. If you do otherwise you will be banned again. No more warnings (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632), since you ignore them anyway.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632
Also 278 posts, ignoring our continuous begging and pleading for you to learn how to quote, is more than enough time. Goes way beyond sheer laziness. Any more goofed up posts on your return will be sent to spam until you repair them.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0
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Remaining non-responsive posts to the questions, and dithering on with repetitive Mohammedan blasphemy, resulted in another ban. That and any further obfuscation will be moved to chat extensions.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2091.0
Anyone that would like to stand in for our friend and actually answer the questions (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632), to support the notion that the prophets were born, lived and died in Mecca, rather than Jerusalem, is more than welcome to reply here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632
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First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.
And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).
Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.
And it may get even worse than that.....
"The first such woman was none but his first cousin-sister, Umm Hani bt Abu Talib. Muhammad passionately fell in love with her, but for some unknown reason his beloved uncle, Abu Talib did not give her hand to Muhammad when Muhammad requested. Instead, she was married to a pagan, Hibayrah. But Muhammad's adulterous relation with Umm Hani (real name Fakitah, also known as Hind) continued. He used to sleep in her house, when no one was around. Such an incidence took place when Muhammad returned from his failed mission at Taif, after the deaths of his first wife, Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib. Returning from Taif, he took shelter in Ka'ba. But at nightfall, when all were asleep, he stealthily went to Umm Hani's house and spent the night with her. When the people did not find him at Ka'ba, they went looking for him and when he was discovered in the house of Umm Hani, he was embarrassed, so was Umm Hani. To hide the truth, he concocted the story of his night journey to Jerusalem and Paradise from Umm Hani's house (more precisely, from her bed), which many converted Muslims found too incredible to believe and left Islam. This made him sad and withdrawn. Soon, after such an adulterous affair was leaked out, he left Mecca and settled in Medina. But his undying love for Umm Hani remained aflame."
In other words Mohammed was perhaps laughed out of Mecca and compelled to settle elsewhere (Medina) through sheer embarrassment and demonstrated hypocrisy. Aisha was likely just helping Mohammed with his story.
For the full article and sources, or to chat regarding that particular subject go to that link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1039.msg3990#msg3990
Umm Hani Fakitah Hind (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7nS4CulMUDsAYDVXNyoA?p=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701&xargs=12KPjg1oduy5a3vOHvKvjFTvXBhg9O0JC35Is_WMQaRp8L_XNtR6AuOfa_3pgqGK5q7y_g_Q..&pstart=3&b=11)
Islamic accounts of Mohammed's whereabouts (http://74.6.238.254/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&fr=yfp-t-701&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&d=4872468738343879&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=29c2fa89,8c83ac86&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=NFRoOrkn_41FW..MPR5q3w--)
Another (http://74.6.238.254/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&fr=yfp-t-701&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&d=4880792385752507&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=9bac41e8,9327ee22&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=HY5QoSfqek8NX7TvLP5wTw--)
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First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.
And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).
Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.
And it may get even worse than that.....
"The first such woman was none but his first cousin-sister, Umm Hani bt Abu Talib. Muhammad passionately fell in love with her, but for some unknown reason his beloved uncle, Abu Talib did not give her hand to Muhammad when Muhammad requested. Instead, she was married to a pagan, Hibayrah. But Muhammad's adulterous relation with Umm Hani (real name Fakitah, also known as Hind) continued. He used to sleep in her house, when no one was around. Such an incidence took place when Muhammad returned from his failed mission at Taif, after the deaths of his first wife, Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib. Returning from Taif, he took shelter in Ka'ba. But at nightfall, when all were asleep, he stealthily went to Umm Hani's house and spent the night with her. When the people did not find him at Ka'ba, they went looking for him and when he was discovered in the house of Umm Hani, he was embarrassed, so was Umm Hani. To hide the truth, he concocted the story of his night journey to Jerusalem and Paradise from Umm Hani's house (more precisely, from her bed), which many converted Muslims found too incredible to believe and left Islam. This made him sad and withdrawn. Soon, after such an adulterous affair was leaked out, he left Mecca and settled in Medina. But his undying love for Umm Hani remained aflame."
In other words Mohammed was perhaps laughed out of Mecca and compelled to settle elsewhere (Medina) through sheer embarrassment and demonstrated hypocrisy. Aisha was likely just helping Mohammed with his story.
For the full article and sources, or to chat regarding that particular subject go to that link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1039.msg3990#msg3990
Umm Hani Fakitah Hind (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7nS4CulMUDsAYDVXNyoA?p=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701&xargs=12KPjg1oduy5a3vOHvKvjFTvXBhg9O0JC35Is_WMQaRp8L_XNtR6AuOfa_3pgqGK5q7y_g_Q..&pstart=3&b=11)
Islamic accounts of Mohammed's whereabouts (http://74.6.238.254/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&fr=yfp-t-701&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&d=4872468738343879&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=29c2fa89,8c83ac86&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=NFRoOrkn_41FW..MPR5q3w--)
Another (http://74.6.238.254/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&fr=yfp-t-701&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Umm+Hani+Fakitah+Hind&d=4880792385752507&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=9bac41e8,9327ee22&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=HY5QoSfqek8NX7TvLP5wTw--)
Regarding why Muhammad went to Jerusalem and meet all the prophets perhaps you should direct that Question at GOD and ask GOD if Muhammad was created by GOD as human being, perhaps you can also ASK GOD WHY HE ALLOWED MUHAMMAD TO HAVE SUCH A HUGE IMPACT ON THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE< OR PERHAPS YOU COULD ASK GOD IF MUHAMMAD WAS SENT BY GOD TO CORRECT ALL THE CONJECTURE OF THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS>
Secondly read your dialogue, it is filled with words like, perhaps he, it is more than likely, in other words (you mean your words), it could be that he spent the night, and that is the tone of hypocrite, conjecture onlies on opinions on more conjecture.
WHAT YOU SAYING IS GOD ONLY ALLOWS MIRACLES TO HAPPEN TO PEOPLE FROM ISRAEL< IN OTHER WORDS GOD IS ONLY A GOD TO ISRAELIS???, YOU NEVER HEARD OF NON JEWISH MIRACLES? ARABS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE HUMAN??? GOD"S CREATION?? MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD"S WILL ON EARTH??? WHAT A BIGOT AND RACIST YOU ARE< PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ARABS< TAKE THE BEAM OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE< REPLACE YOUR VILENESS AND HATRED WITH THE LOVE AND OPEN HEARTEDNESS OF NABI EESA born of Mariam,
STOP USING YOUR LOGIC IN ISLAM APPLY IT TO YOUR OWN DOCTRINES AND SEE THE ABSURDITY OF THE HISTORY OF JERUSALEM< LOOK AT THE TWISTING OF HISTORY TO SUIT THE THEN POLITICIANS AND RULERS,
EXODUS IS FROM YOUR HOMELAND AND NOT TO YOUR HOMELAND
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Mujaheed you have once again missed the point wonderfully. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey? And you have yet to answer a question based on simple logic. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God? Jerusalem contains an extensive record and their is not the first scrap of evidence of a single person from Israel ever going to Mecca in Biblical times to do anything.
Furthermore you can tone down the rhetoric. Noone has made the claim that
GOD ONLY ALLOWS MIRACLES TO HAPPEN TO PEOPLE FROM ISRAEL< IN OTHER WORDS GOD IS ONLY A GOD TO ISRAELIS???, YOU NEVER HEARD OF NON JEWISH MIRACLES? ARABS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE HUMAN??? GOD"S CREATION?? MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD"S WILL ON EARTH???
So your unfounded claims of us being...
A BIGOT AND RACIST YOU ARE< PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ARABS
...is not only unwarranted but completely absurd. You have been warned of your language here already. DO NOT make me warn you again or your ban will continue. Now if you wish to continue your assertion of Mecca being the Holy Land you can first answer these two questions.
1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?
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1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?
To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity. Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa. You are asking the question as if the religion of Islam is different and the Arabs were located in the Americas or Europe. Islam is the natural progression from the religion of all the prophets of GOD. Hence Jerusalem is a very holy site according to followers of the Prophets.
Why do you suppose the Jews outnumbered the Arabs in the time of the Prophet in Madina? What were GOD's People doing 1200 miles from the epicenter of their religion? Let me answer for you: They were waiting for the Comforter to come deliver them from tyrant Rulers (Romans). They rejected Muhammad as they did most of the Prophets of ALLAH that is why the Prophet Muhammad was chosen to lead mankind to the truth.
2. Let me reword you statement, "you are the only individuals on the entire planet trying to conjure up the false notions of archeological evidence theory and because you have not excavated nor have any evidence you want everyone else to believe as you do. This is nothing new, the Jews reworded scripture and went astray, the mixed culture and politics into the religion and fell into great misfortune at each killing of the Prophets of GOD. They then admired and allowed the greeks to translate the remnants of scripture and later the Romans reworded the text to suit their agendas and voila we have the OT and the NT, it did not stop there, editing is still continuing unabated into the twenty first century with the New revised revised, version from the translated Greek Septuagint that has been copied and rewritten numerous times by unknown authors. Makkah will not fall victim to the same conjecture because of old wives tales told around campfires, distorted by each story teller until nothing of the original is left.
You already distorting the history that is available and using it to vilify the Religion of THE GOD of the Universe, the Most merciful the most benevolent, ALLAHu AKBAR, ALLAH (is greater than everything.) by calling it Jinn worship and pagan rituals, without the fact that it stems from the stories of the Prophets.
I am not deviating from the topic when I answer you, you want to post long unsubstantiated passages but want me to be concise, very nice ploy you have trying hard to make your words appear to be superior and authoritative (very lame ploy), Please note that most educated Muslims regards a person without Emaan (faith) as ignorant, the person is either a Mushrihk (ascribes partners to ALLAH most merciful) or a Dhaalim (cursed or lost like the Jews) or a Kaafir (disbeliever) or a faasiq (open transgressor or criminal) depending on his approach to a matter. All educated Muslims will dismiss your statements as absurd the moment they read it as the evidence comes from the Quran, all you doing is making me check the verses and the Hadith to further my Islamic knowledge and education, I just realised your purpose and I should thank you, you making me a better Muslim actually. I am asking serious Questions about Islam and getting closer to the Quran and the Sunnah.
Thank you..
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1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?
To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
Allow me to lighten your load then. You are not leading me anywhere. I am sheltered in the hand of the Creator and saved by the blood of the Lamb. So you can keep Allah.
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity.
Jerusalem is Holy because it was set apart to bear God's presence on earth in the OT era and the site of His Son's crucifixion in the NT. Mecca didn't exist until the 4th century AD. Period. You accuse others of conjecture but that is what your claim above is. There is NO evidence to suggest Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD and any hypothesis based on that claim just compounds that conjecture. Some Jews reject what some call the "trinity" for the same reason you do. You are both convinced that God cannot do something.
Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa. You are asking the question as if the religion of Islam is different and the Arabs were located in the Americas or Europe. Islam is the natural progression from the religion of all the prophets of GOD. Hence Jerusalem is a very holy site according to followers of the Prophets.
Islam is a compilation of Judaism, Christianity, Zoastrianism, and pagan moon, sun and star worship. I have shown you in other threads the etymology of Allah's name as well as the various temples where he was worshipped as a moon deity. And you are missing the point. If the Holy Land was in Arabia there would have been no need for Muhammad to travel to Jerusalem to start with.
Why do you suppose the Jews outnumbered the Arabs in the time of the Prophet in Madina? What were GOD's People doing 1200 miles from the epicenter of their religion? Let me answer for you: They were waiting for the Comforter to come deliver them from tyrant Rulers (Romans). They rejected Muhammad as they did most of the Prophets of ALLAH that is why the Prophet Muhammad was chosen to lead mankind to the truth.
Because of the diaspora. Something else that history and the Bible both agree upon. The Assyrians drove them out of Israel in 722 BC and the Romans did so again in 70 AD. No mystery. Their were Jewish communities all over Europe, Asia and Africa. And the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Muhammad's actions show him to be anything but a comforter.
2. Let me reword you statement, "you are the only individuals on the entire planet trying to conjure up the false notions of archeological evidence theory and because you have not excavated nor have any evidence you want everyone else to believe as you do. This is nothing new, the Jews reworded scripture and went astray, the mixed culture and politics into the religion and fell into great misfortune at each killing of the Prophets of GOD. They then admired and allowed the greeks to translate the remnants of scripture and later the Romans reworded the text to suit their agendas and voila we have the OT and the NT, it did not stop there, editing is still continuing unabated into the twenty first century with the New revised revised, version from the translated Greek Septuagint that has been copied and rewritten numerous times by unknown authors. Makkah will not fall victim to the same conjecture because of old wives tales told around campfires, distorted by each story teller until nothing of the original is left.
You can reword whatever you like. In fact you must necessarily do so to make your strawman arguments. We can discuss the textual integrity of the Bible versus that of the Qur'an in the appropriate thread AFTER you have finished here. But no matter how much faith you have in Islam it is not going to create evidence for its' existence prior to Muhammad or Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD.
You already distorting the history that is available and using it to vilify the Religion of THE GOD of the Universe, the Most merciful the most benevolent, ALLAHu AKBAR, ALLAH (is greater than everything.) by calling it Jinn worship and pagan rituals, without the fact that it stems from the stories of the Prophets.
Islam stems from Muhammad's delusions of grandeur. But that isn't the topic being discussed at hand. You have yet to answer either of the two questions posed to you. Until you are prepared to do that please refrain from posting.
I am not deviating from the topic when I answer you, you want to post long unsubstantiated passages but want me to be concise, very nice ploy you have trying hard to make your words appear to be superior and authoritative (very lame ploy),
You do not answer the questions asked you. You go off on tangents and unrelated topics and post at length about things noone has mentioned. So spare me your critiques.
Please note that most educated Muslims regards a person without Emaan (faith) as ignorant, the person is either a Mushrihk (ascribes partners to ALLAH most merciful) or a Dhaalim (cursed or lost like the Jews) or a Kaafir (disbeliever) or a faasiq (open transgressor or criminal) depending on his approach to a matter. All educated Muslims will dismiss your statements as absurd the moment they read it as the evidence comes from the Quran,
The Qur'an cannot be used as evidence for Mecca's existence prior to the 4th century AD no more than the Declaration of Independence can be used as evidence of Philidelphia's existence prior to the 16th century AD. To do that you have to look at historical and archealogical records that predate the event in question. Which is the whole point you are missing. There is none to prove Mecca existed prior to 4 AD. Period. And until you can provide such proof your argument is nothing more than conjecture.
all you doing is making me check the verses and the Hadith to further my Islamic knowledge and education, I just realised your purpose and I should thank you, you making me a better Muslim actually. I am asking serious Questions about Islam and getting closer to the Quran and the Sunnah.
My purpose is to shed light on the dark places. Islam is such a dark place. The fact that you have proven yourself incapable or unwilling to use logic, deductive or inductive reasoning, empathy or show any humility has affirmed how strongly that darkness has gripped you. I pray for you my friend.
Thank you..
Hopefully oneday you will have a real reason to.
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Let me answer concisely, there is no archeological artifacts for Makkah in the possession of non-Muslims.
There are no historical records as the tradition of the Arabs is preserving history through poetry and anyone claiming that Makkah did not exists because they have examined historical text is doing so from baseless writings of Pagan Greek and Roman historians far removed from Arabia.
Stating something does not make it fact, just because you willing to believe something does not make it true or even relevant, this topic has no relevance to anything Islamic.
I believe the Quran is the Scripture from ALLAH sent to confirm that Jerusalem is Holy, but Makkah was given favor over Jerusalem as the Bani Israeel is cursed for their slaying of the Prophets of GOD and their persistence in changing the Words of GOD. Hence the Prophethood of Muhammad, and Makkah as the new epicenter for the Religion of GOD. The return to the Origin so to speak.
All the Scripture ad Prophets started in Makkah, then the Exodus to Jerusalem and then The return to the Holy Land of Makkah. Read the Bible carefully and eradicate the Pagan Greek and Roman influences and you will be left with Islam. Their was always one Religion Islam, All the Prophets of God are Muslim, and they all attested to "THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE!.
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Let me answer concisely, there is no archeological artifacts for Makkah in the possession of non-Muslims.
Let me answer concisely, there is no archaelogical evidence for Mecca prior 4 AD period.
There are no historical records as the tradition of the Arabs is preserving history through poetry and anyone claiming that Makkah did not exists because they have examined historical text is doing so from baseless writings of Pagan Greek and Roman historians far removed from Arabia.
Sorry but that excuse is as flacid as a wet noodle. There are archaelogical records as well as historical accounts for numerous arabic cities prior to the 4th century AD. IF Mecca had existed its' importance would have surely garnered notice. But this isn't the case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia
Stating something does not make it fact, just because you willing to believe something does not make it true or even relevant, this topic has no relevance to anything Islamic.
Exactly. Which is why it is ironic you state Mecca is the true holy city of God and the epicenter of man's worship of God since the beginning of time given there is no evidence for its' existence prior to 4 AD.
I believe the Quran is the Scripture from ALLAH sent to confirm that Jerusalem is Holy, but Makkah was given favor over Jerusalem as the Bani Israeel is cursed for their slaying of the Prophets of GOD and their persistence in changing the Words of GOD. Hence the Prophethood of Muhammad, and Makkah as the new epicenter for the Religion of GOD. The return to the Origin so to speak.
Yes you believe those things. Because the Qur'an says so. Saying that the Qur'an is true because the Qur'an says so is circular reasoning. There is no external proof for any of those claims.
All the Scripture ad Prophets started in Makkah, then the Exodus to Jerusalem and then The return to the Holy Land of Makkah. Read the Bible carefully and eradicate the Pagan Greek and Roman influences and you will be left with Islam. Their was always one Religion Islam, All the Prophets of God are Muslim, and they all attested to "THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE!.
Wrong. The prophets came to man through the nation of Israel and Judah. They were chosen to be the conduit through which God would relate to man culminating in the life, ministry, and redemption of Jesus. And as I said before if you want to discuss the textual integrity of the Bible verses the Qur'an we can do that after you have made your case. You have thus far failed to do so.
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This is not deviating, I have to explain the following to you as you seem to be under a huge spell of misinformation.
What I have failed to do is convince you to leave conjecture lies, and opinions, that is all I have failed to do.
I have failed to convince you that the lies you follow, like Israel is a nation, Israel is a person renamed after being called Jacob and the offspring is Bani (children) of Israel (JACOB), the one tribe is Judah amongst the 12 Tribes, the lies been perpetuated long enough became a truth as did many of the lies. Think of all the Invaders and destroyers of the Bani Israeel like before the greeks and Romans and many Nations which obviously eradicated the pure blood of the tribes through rape and selling the woman off in slavery one after the other, how do you think an Afro-Semetic tribe whose origins are in Africa happen to have fair skins?
You have such a twisted take on history that it would take decades for me to undo all the falsehood, conjecture and lies told by the historians, most Muslims, will not enter into conversations with people that come from Jahilliyyah (ignorant) practices. I am hoping that I am not wasting my time with hard headed individuals that are puffed up with pride and the devil.
Why do you think GOD sent Prophet after Prophet after Prophet to the Bani Israeel? because they were favored as they are the lineage of the Prophet Ibraheem, when they tried to Kill Jesus, they became cursed by ALLAH, the followers of Nabi EESA were then led astray, and the final Prophet was sent from the lineage of Nabi Ibraheem, from where it all Started, Makkah.
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This is not deviating, I have to explain the following to you as you seem to be under a huge spell of misinformation.
This coming from someone who has not shown a single shred of evidence for his claims outside of "the Qur'an says so".
What I have failed to do is convince you to leave conjecture lies, and opinions, that is all I have failed to do.
I have failed to convince you that the lies you follow, like Israel is a nation, Israel is a person renamed after being called Jacob and the offspring is Bani (children) of Israel (JACOB), the one tribe is Judah amongst the 12 Tribes, the lies been perpetuated long enough became a truth as did many of the lies.
Israel was indeed Jacob. His children became the leaders of their respective tribes. Hence the 12 tribes of Israel. But the nation was also called Israel. It was split into two nations after Solomon's death. The upper kingdom named Israel and the southern kingdom became Judah. That is an historical fact that can be verified historically and archaelogically.
Think of all the Invaders and destroyers of the Bani Israeel like before the greeks and Romans and many Nations which obviously eradicated the pure blood of the tribes through rape and selling the woman off in slavery one after the other, how do you think an Afro-Semetic tribe whose origins are in Africa happen to have fair skins?
Their was no "pure" blood of Israel. Abraham was a Mesopotamian from Ur of Chaldees. He was not from Africa. His son Isaac begat Jacob who became Israel and begat the sons that became the respective leaders of tribes of Israel. Each of these sons took wives and their wives entered into the convenant along with their husbands. To be an Israelite also meant you had to enter into the Covenant that God made with Abraham and renewed with Isaac and Jacob.
You have such a twisted take on history that it would take decades for me to undo all the falsehood, conjecture and lies told by the historians, most Muslims, will not enter into conversations with people that come from Jahilliyyah (ignorant) practices. I am hoping that I am not wasting my time with hard headed individuals that are puffed up with pride and the devil.
You keep accusing others of conjectures and lies but you believe a bunch of stories penned in the 7th and 8th century as historical fact. Amazing. Also I have warned you of false accusation and making insulting claims. You may believe me to be puffed up with pride and the devil but you can keep such sentiments to yourself if you wish to continue this discourse.
Why do you think GOD sent Prophet after Prophet after Prophet to the Bani Israeel? because they were favored as they are the lineage of the Prophet Ibraheem, when they tried to Kill Jesus, they became cursed by ALLAH, the followers of Nabi EESA were then led astray, and the final Prophet was sent from the lineage of Nabi Ibraheem, from where it all Started, Makkah.
God sent prophet after prophet to witness to the nation of Israel and Judah to stay true to God AND to reveal more of God's future plans. Those plans culminated in Jesus through whom the whole world is offered salvation. Muhammad was no prophet and even admitted to being confused by satan to reveal false revelations. That automatically disqualified him from being a true prophet. And if he couldn't tell if he was speaking to God or satan that time who is to say he ever could? And he gave no sign or prediction to verify his claims to prophethood and his character was abysmal. And as I have already pointed out to you there is no evidence of Mecca existing prior to 4 AD. If their is provide a link to it and we can go from there. If you cannot do that then this subject will go no further.
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CONCLUSION YOU PREFER THE LIES PENNED BY EUROPEANS, YOU HAVE NO WAY OF VERIFICATION OF THE UR STORY OTHER THAN GREEK AND ROMAN SOURCES, THE ARCHEOLOGY IS PURE CONJECTURE>
The Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical Semitic languages in the Middle East, is thought to have been originally from either the Arabian Peninsula (particularly around Yemen) or the adjacent Ethiopian highlands. But its region(actual location either Yemen or Ethiopia) of origin is still much debated and uncertain with, for example, a recent bayesian analysis identifying an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant around 5,750 BP with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 2,800 BP.
HOW IS IT THAT THE LANGUAGE MIGRATED FROM AFRICA To THE NORTH BUT ACCORDING TO YOU THE TRBES MIGRATED FROM THE EAST? SoMEONE IS LYING!!!
The Semitic language family is also considered a component of the larger Afroasiatic macro-family of languages. Identification of the hypothetical proto-Semitic region of origin is therefore dependent on the larger geographic distributions of the other language families within Afroasiatic.
The concept of "Semitic" peoples is derived from Biblical accounts of the origins of the cultures known to the ancient Hebrews. Those closest to them in culture and language were generally deemed to be descended from their forefather Shem. Enemies were often said to be descendants of his cursed nephew, Canaan. In Genesis 10:21-31, Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and Arpachshad: the Biblical ancestors of the Arabs, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc., all of whose languages are closely related; the language family containing them was therefore named Semitic by linguists. However, the Canaanites and Amorites also spoke a language belonging to this family, and are therefore also termed Semitic in linguistics, despite being described in Genesis as sons of Ham (See Sons of Noah).
HOW IS I A NATION FORMED? THEY ARE OF THE SAME FAMILY BUT OVER TIME BECAME A DIFFERENT NATION? ONLY IF INVADERS MIX THE SEED, WHICH MEANS THAT IT IS A LINEAGE NOT A NATION!!
THE NATION IS AFRO-SEMETIC WHO BECAME ARAB THEN AN OFFSPRING TO THE BANI ISRAEEL
GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT,
I AM SURE THAT THEY STOPPED AT MAKKAH DURING THE MIGRATION ABRAHAM FROM HIS HOMELAND.
THE TWO ACCOUNTS IN THE BIBLE IS VERY CONTRADICTORY AND THE AS I HAVE SAID I WILL NOT TRUST THE GREEK AND ROMAN TAKE ON THE HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY> THE ARCHEOLOGY IS VERY MUCH DISPUTED WITH THOUSANDS OF THEORIES FROM EVERY ARCHEOLOGISTS (ONLY CHRISTIAN EUROPEAUN INDOCTRINATED SCHOLARS SEEM TO AGREE!!
The modern linguistic meaning of "Semitic" is therefore derived from (though not identical to) Biblical usage. In a linguistic context the Semitic languages are a subgroup of the larger Afroasiatic language family (according to Joseph Greenberg's widely accepted classification) and include, among others: Akkadian, the ancient language of Babylon and Assyria; Amorite, Amharic, the official language of Ethiopia; Tigrinya, a language spoken in Eritrea and in northern Ethiopia; Arabic; Aramaic, still spoken in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean Christians and Mandeans; Canaanite; Ge'ez, the ancient language of the Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox scriptures which originated in Yemen; Hebrew; Maltese; Phoenician or Punic; Syriac (a form of Aramaic); and South Arabian, the ancient language of Sheba/Saba, which today includes Mehri, spoken by only tiny minorities on the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula.
CONNECT THE DOTS
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Mujaheed your strawman tactics are as transparent as your character. I didn't say the language wasn't afro-semitic. I said that Abraham was from UR of Chaldees in Mesopotamia. Languages change and are adapted over time. The decendants of Abraham would have been darker in color though not likely to be black. Over time through the intermarriage with those who came into the Covenant the physical features would have changed and the constant travel would have meant their language changed over time as well ending up as Hebrew. But none of that registers with you because you believe that a man who gave no prophecy or performed a single miracle, who had no witnesses to his "revelations", who lived centuries after the events in question told you otherwise. The Qur'an is an historical joke and should be seen as such. I have had enough of your blah blah blah. Either give a link with evidence for Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD or do not post on this topic anymore.
PS. Perhaps you missed this part.
Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean
Those language groups cover large areas including MUCH of Asia. So thanks for more corroboration on the Ur connection.
Good day.
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Mujaheed your strawman tactics are as transparent as your character. I didn't say the language wasn't afro-semitic. I said that Abraham was from UR of Chaldees in Mesopotamia. Languages change and are adapted over time. The decendants of Abraham would have been darker in color though not likely to be black. Over time through the intermarriage with those who came into the Covenant the physical features would have changed and the constant travel would have meant their language changed over time as well ending up as Hebrew. But none of that registers with you because you believe that a man who gave no prophecy or performed a single miracle, who had no witnesses to his "revelations", who lived centuries after the events in question told you otherwise. The Qur'an is an historical joke and should be seen as such. I have had enough of your blah blah blah. Either give a link with evidence for Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD or do not post on this topic anymore.
PS. Perhaps you missed this part.
Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean
Those language groups cover large areas including MUCH of Asia. So thanks for more corroboration on the Ur connection.
Good day.
What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals, you tell a story from a single viewpoint with no references of the actual places. In the event any book that is not Euro-centric is brought to you you will argue with known european deviated scholarly works that has confused the world to such a degree that we now have chaos everywhere.
Follow the Logic, GOD's {People Migrated north to Jerusalem, the exodus is from the Homeland to the Place of Peace, not from the place of peace to egypt and back again, Ludicrous history with no historical basis.
Read the history of the Arabs in Arabic. Read another point of view, and get a true perspective of Go's People.
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1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?
To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) ........
Go to Jerusalem from where?
From Mecca? Are you saying the 12 tribes were from Mecca?
When did they go?
According to what?
Were all the prophets from Mecca but then migrated to Jerusalem?
How do you suppose they did this over the span of so many hundreds of years that they existed? Individually born in Mecca and then walked to Jerusalem?
Where's the evidence? The same place the evidence of Mecca prior to the Christian era is hiding?
....... and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity. Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa.
So when was Masjidul Aqsa built?
Google it.
It was built after Mohammed was dead. So what "prophets" attended that unholy 7th century place?
Indeed Mohammed lied about going into a (non-existent) mosque to pray, when he lied about riding his flying donkey-mule, to Jerusalem.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
So your false premise went right out the window. Try again.
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There was always a Masjid there, from Abraham building it with Isaac as he did rebuilt Masjidul Haram(Baitullah) It is also the site of another Prophet of ALLAH Nabi Sulaymaan peace be upon him.
The Prophets are all connected as the Muslim Ummah is one body. The preceding prophets laid the foundations for the later ones. The core belief and obedience to ALLAH was lost with translations and interpretations and doctrines written by men, hence the need for messengers and good men to be sent as lberators (from tyrant oppressors), warners (against evil and deviation) and bringers of glad tidings (Injeel of nabi EESA AND MUHAMMAD).
It is not difficult to understand when you seek knowledge with your objective: submission to The Creator of the everything in existence, the lord of the Universe, king of the Day of Judgement,The Unique One without a beginning nor and ending, The most merciful the Most benevolent ALLAH.
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There was always a Masjid there, from Abraham building it with Isaac as he did rebuilt Masjidul Haram(Baitullah) It is also the site of another Prophet of ALLAH Nabi Sulaymaan peace be upon him.
A Masjid is a building dedicated to Islamic worship. The one that you referred to was not built until after Mohammed was dead. Which one did Mohammed pray in when he rode his flying donkey-mule to Jerusalem?
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A Masjid is a house of GOD (translated into English for those that dont speak Holy Scripture language)Translated as Temple (PAGAN HOUSE OF WORSHIP) CHURCH (ENGLISH PAGAN TEMPLE)
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You've raised even so many more unsupported claims that it is going to take a long time just to work out the issues on this page, let alone the unanswered stuff from the prior page, some of which I partially agree with like.....
"What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals...." http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8759#msg8759
I would have to agree with regard to the papers on Islam since, in Rafat Amari's case, he had to rely so heavily on the Hadith, Islamic reporters and Islamic so-called "scholars", as evidenced by his bibliographies as in these examples.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1267.msg4917#msg4917
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.msg7347#msg7347
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
As do we in this forum.
A Masjid is a house of GOD (translated into English for those that dont speak Holy Scripture language) ......
Which for Muslims means 7th century AD Quraish Arabic.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1693.msg6952#msg6952
.....Translated as Temple (PAGAN HOUSE OF WORSHIP) CHURCH (ENGLISH PAGAN TEMPLE)
Now please answer the question.
Which mosque did Mohammed pray in when he rode his flying donkey-mule to Jerusalem?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
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Is this not the Site of the holy house of Solomon? Is Jerusalem not the Holy Sanctuary of all the Prophets of ALLAH? He prayed in The farthest Masajid and the Scholars are unaminous that the Location is The Same Location you say Nabi Sulaymaan built his House for GOD. It would only be befitting that all the Prophets meet at such a location,
A masajid is a place of worship and in the biblical times many of the Masajid even in the 7th century did not have a roof on it, your 20th century does not apply to the scripture.
The Place that you say is the Temple of Solomon is Masjidul AQSA, There is no need to ask a stupid question like when the Mosque was built, it was always there, today it just has a different structure!
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Is this not the Site of the holy house of Solomon? Is Jerusalem not the Holy Sanctuary of all the Prophets of ALLAH?
Not according to this thread subject of yours. Mecca is.
Are you now saying that Mecca was not the home of the prophets of the scriptures but the actual Holy Land is?
And that is why Mohammed flew his baraq there?
He prayed in The farthest Masajid and the Scholars are unaminous that the Location is The Same Location you say Nabi Sulaymaan built his House for GOD.
Same area. Not the same location at all. Some believe the Dome of the Rock abomination occupies part of the area that Solomon's temple did, but this isn't the case either. The little "Dome of the Spirits" however, does. It even lines up with the Eastern "Gate Beautiful".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/10126820.gif)
It would only be befitting that all the Prophets meet at such a location,
God isn't about what an antichrist decides is "befitting" of Him. He is about the way He revealed Himself to mankind. That record of revelation was complete in the 1st century.
The temple was torn down so that mankind would only be able to see one path to God.
A masajid is a place of worship and in the biblical times many of the Masajid even in the 7th century did not have a roof on it, your 20th century does not apply to the scripture.
The Place that you say is the Temple of Solomon is Masjidul AQSA, There is no need to ask a stupid question like when the Mosque was built, it was always there, today it just has a different structure!
That is only a stupid question to someone who wishes to remain ignorant. Calif Omar ordered the building of the mosque. He didn't even arrive in Jerusalem until 639.
History records that the temple mount at the time was being used as a garbage dump. Are you suggesting that Mohammed went inside a mosque just a few years earlier in the middle of a garbage dump?
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Not according to you. Mecca is.
According to me as advised by the Prophet Muhammad and to set your ignorant version straightis: The Prophet
Masjid Al-Aqsa - The Second House of Allah on Earth
1, Abu Dharr (ra) reported that he asked the Prophet (saw), "O Messenger of Allah, which Masjid was built first on earth"? The Prophet (saw) replied, "The Sacred Masjid of Makkah". Abu Dharr (ra) again asked, "Which was next"? The Prophet (saw) said, "Masjid Al-Aqsa". Abu Dharr (ra) further asked, "How long was the period between the building of the two Masjids"? The Prophet (saw) said, "Forty years". Apart from these, offer your prayer anywhere when it is time to pray, although excellence is in praying in these Masjids". (Bukhari)
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You didn't answer the question.
1. Are you now disagreeing with this article you posted, and saying that Mecca was not the home of the prophets of the scriptures, but that Jerusalem was?
It can't make any sense at all, can it. Even in Mohammedanism. There would have been no need for Mohammed to fly to Jerusalem to tie his baraq to the ring the prophets used, if they were born, lived and died in Mecca.
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Not according to you. Mecca is.
According to me as advised by the Prophet Muhammad and to set your ignorant version straightis: The Prophet
Masjid Al-Aqsa - The Second House of Allah on Earth
1, Abu Dharr (ra) reported that he asked the Prophet (saw), "O Messenger of Allah, which Masjid was built first on earth"? The Prophet (saw) replied, "The Sacred Masjid of Makkah". Abu Dharr (ra) again asked, "Which was next"? The Prophet (saw) said, "Masjid Al-Aqsa". Abu Dharr (ra) further asked, "How long was the period between the building of the two Masjids"? The Prophet (saw) said, "Forty years". Apart from these, offer your prayer anywhere when it is time to pray, although excellence is in praying in these Masjids". (Bukhari)
See what happens when you quote 7th and 8th century created fictional poppycock that masquerades as history?
According to those history ignorant, southwest Arabian desert dwelling, 7th and 8th century Islamic authors Adam is supposed to have built the Kaaba (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,26767,27758,27797,27824,27879&sugexp=leprodeca4&xhr=t&q=adam+built+the+kaaba&cp=20&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=8bc48c66f0d3c525) yet you seem to be saying that we are to believe that only another forty years passed after Adam, before the temple in Jerusalem was built.
2. Anything seem a little peculiar to you about Mohammed's timeline to you?
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A masajid is a place of worship and in the biblical times many of the Masajid even in the 7th century did not have a roof on it, your 20th century does not apply to the scripture.
The Place that you say is the Temple of Solomon is Masjidul AQSA, There is no need to ask a stupid question like when the Mosque was built, it was always there, today it just has a different structure!
That is only a stupid question to someone who wishes to remain ignorant. Calif Omar ordered the building of the mosque. He didn't even arrive in Jerusalem until 639 AD.
History records that the temple mount at the time was being used as a garbage dump.
3. Are you suggesting that Mohammed rode to Jerusalem on his flying baraq and went inside a mosque that was located in a garbage dump?
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Mujaheed your strawman tactics are as transparent as your character. I didn't say the language wasn't afro-semitic. I said that Abraham was from UR of Chaldees in Mesopotamia. Languages change and are adapted over time. The decendants of Abraham would have been darker in color though not likely to be black. Over time through the intermarriage with those who came into the Covenant the physical features would have changed and the constant travel would have meant their language changed over time as well ending up as Hebrew. But none of that registers with you because you believe that a man who gave no prophecy or performed a single miracle, who had no witnesses to his "revelations", who lived centuries after the events in question told you otherwise. The Qur'an is an historical joke and should be seen as such. I have had enough of your blah blah blah. Either give a link with evidence for Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD or do not post on this topic anymore.
PS. Perhaps you missed this part.
Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean
Those language groups cover large areas including MUCH of Asia. So thanks for more corroboration on the Ur connection.
Good day.
What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals, you tell a story from a single viewpoint with no references of the actual places.
4. Then please guide us to a source detailing the archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed as an "actual place", before the 4th century AD.
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In the event any book that is not Euro-centric is brought to you you will argue with known european deviated scholarly works that has confused the world to such a degree that we now have chaos everywhere.
5. We have been begging you to bring us any such a book that references some historical record of Mecca that was penned before the 4th century AD. Like the historical and archaeological evidence that exists for other Arabian towns.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1912.msg8386#msg8386
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Follow the Logic, GOD's {People Migrated north to Jerusalem, ......
Nothing could be more illogical since Mecca did not exist before the Christian era.
Additionally, the Old Testament prophets spanned a period of many hundreds of years.
6. Did they "migrate" one by one?
You should know by now that if you are going to make such a preposterous claim you are going to have to back it up with some EVIDENCE.
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...... the exodus is from the Homeland to the Place of Peace, not from the place of peace to egypt and back again, Ludicrous history with no historical basis.
Abraham's travels documented in scripture are well supported by archaeology as well. Sane Muslims agree they began in Ur (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,26767,28057,28066&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=abraham+ur+islam&cp=16&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=abraham+ur+islam&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=267856ed3ee60de5), not 1200 kilometers across harsh Arabian desert from there. Indeed Abraham traveled up to 2,000 kilometers in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of Mecca, as affirmed by that archaeology. (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,26767,28057,28066&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=archaeology+abraham&cp=16&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=0v&aqi=&aql=&oq=archaeology+abrah&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=267856ed3ee60de5)
"Ludicrous" is a view supported by nothing but hot air and words written by some guy in 1984 that even your sane contemporaries never bought into. This includes your unscholarly Islamic so-called "scholars" who even actually believe Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael were in Mecca, without a shred of evidence to suggest that is true.
(http://www.petewaldo.com/04f4e680.gif)
While some small distances are still in question, it would be ridiculous to suggest that those travels included a town a thousand kilometers away, that was not settled until 1500 years later, and by which an overland route was not even established until most of a thousand years later.
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Read the history of the Arabs in Arabic.
Please bring us some.
And I don't mean your 7th and 8th century AD historical fiction, since Islamic history only BEGAN to be recorded, around the time of the year of the elephant.
Amari's first language is Arabic. He explored evidence of lots of ancient Arabian towns. Mecca was absent from those ancient records because it did not exist before the Christian era.
Read another point of view, and get a true perspective of Go's People.
What you are referring to is not "perspective" but rather fantasy.
7. Please bring us a link to another perspective that does not spring out of that late dated Islamic fiction. Something that details the ancient historical and archaeological record of Mecca from reference to ancient records.
We will try Google translator to read it.
The fact is there is no such documentation because it does not exist in Arabic or any other language on earth.
If it did, why do you suppose it would it be kept such a secret? To make Muslims feel foolish?
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1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?
To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) ........
8. Go to Jerusalem from where?
9. From Mecca?
Are you saying the 12 tribes were from Mecca?
10. According to what?
Please bring the evidence of your claim.
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1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?
To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) ........
11. Were all the prophets from Mecca but then migrated to Jerusalem?
12. How do you suppose they did this over the span of so many hundreds of years that they existed?
13. Individually born in Mecca and then walked the 1200 kilometers to Jerusalem one by one over hundreds of years?
Where's the evidence? The same place the evidence of Mecca prior to the Christian era is hiding?
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....... and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity. Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa.
14. So when was Masjidul Aqsa built?
Google it.
15. It was built after Mohammed was dead. So what "prophets" attended that unholy 7th century building?
Indeed Mohammed lied about going into a (non-existent) mosque to pray, when he lied about riding his flying donkey-mule, to Jerusalem.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0
So your false premise went right out the window. Try again.
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There was always a Masjid there, from Abraham building it with Isaac as he did rebuilt Masjidul Haram(Baitullah) It is also the site of another Prophet of ALLAH Nabi Sulaymaan peace be upon him.
Thank you for bringing him up. I was uncertain who you were referring to and so I googled the name and found this wonderful bit of Islamic fiction regarding King Solomon wherein he heard an ant call out to him. Lots more fun than that at the link. A regular Mohammedan Dr. Doolittle!
"THE PLIGHT OF THE ANTS One day when Nabi Sulaiman (alayhis salaam) and his army reached a valley on their way to fight their enemy he heard a tiny ant cry out, “O you ants, hurry seek shelter, hide, the soldiers are coming this way. Quickly take cover or they will trample you to death(27:18).†When he heard these cries of warning from the tiny ant he stopped his army and asked his men to be very careful not to kill the tiny ants. He smiled at the wisdom of this ant..."
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2112.0
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The Prophets are all connected as the Muslim Ummah is one body. The preceding prophets laid the foundations for the later ones.
We do find a progressive revealing of YHWH to His people over 1600 years. That progression is how we know that Mohammed's ungodly murder, prisoner rape, and theft - that came along 1500 years after even the old covenant saints had ended the suggestion of use of the sword in God's service, let along the message of the peace of the Gospel - is how we know Mohammed was a false prophet.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=935.0
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The core belief and obedience to ALLAH was lost with translations and interpretations and doctrines written by men, hence the need for messengers and good men to be sent as lberators (from tyrant oppressors), warners (against evil and deviation) and bringers of glad tidings (Injeel of nabi EESA AND MUHAMMAD).
But it is the ultimate folly to believe that after revealing Himself over 1600 years through ALL of His prophets and witnesses, that He would then turn around 500 years after that record was closed, to perfectly contradict it, and reveal the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, through a 7th century murdering, raping, thief.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
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It is not difficult to understand when you seek knowledge with your objective: submission to The Creator of the everything in existence, the lord of the Universe, king of the Day of Judgement,The Unique One without a beginning nor and ending, The most merciful the Most benevolent ALLAH.
My friend, in light of the 1600 year record of YHWH to His people, it is not difficult to see that Mohammed was inspired by Satan, since he WAS and taught the EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus Christ and the Gospel.
That it is the father of lies plan, to have as many join him in perdition, as he can deceive.
That is who you are submitted to, Mohammed's alter-ego "Allah" my friend, not YHWH.
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What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, .......
But you exactly described Islamic "tradition".
You have yet to bring a single shred of evidence that suggests that the entirety of Islamic "tradition" regarding Mecca prior to the Christian era, is anything more than a pure fictional creation of the 7th and 8th century.
........ conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals, ........
Indeed much of Amari's information comes from Godless individuals. Some of his bibliographies are composed almost entirely of Islamic authors. Hardly Euro-centric.
You've raised even so many more unsupported claims that it is going to take a long time just to work out the issues on this page, let alone the unanswered stuff from the prior page, some of which I partially agree with like.....
"What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals...." http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8759#msg8759
I would have to agree with regard to the papers on Islam since, in Rafat Amari's case, he had to rely so heavily on the Hadith, Islamic reporters and Islamic so-called "scholars", as evidenced by his bibliographies as in these examples.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1267.msg4917#msg4917
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.msg7347#msg7347
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
16. Please click on the above links and tell me what kind of authors they are.
........ you tell a story from a single viewpoint with no references of the actual places.
As everyone can see from the bibliographies above, this is just another one of your empty false accusations.
In the event any book that is not Euro-centric is brought to you you will argue with known european deviated scholarly works....
But the only information available on early Islamic history - that is necessarily labeled "tradition" since it is all bunk - comes from the pens of 7th and 8th century AD southwest Arabian desert dwellers, my friend.
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.....that has confused the world to such a degree that we now have chaos everywhere.
Isn't it funny how blind you are?
17. Please explain to us the the rape, pillage and plunder of the imperialistic conquest of the first Islamic jihad all the way up to France and Austria.
18. Please explain to us why Mohammed's true followers of today, continue the rape pillage and plunder, with 2 million killed in the Sudan alone.
Almost everywhere we find "chaos everywhere", that is murder, mayhem and misery in the world today, we find Mohammed's followers behaving like ......... Mohammed! With over 16,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=731.0
It cannot be argued that Benjamin Netanyahu was 100% accurate when he declared, "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
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Upon your return from the vacation admin imposed on you please answer the prior posts - in order - and wait for replies to your replies, before moving on to any other threads. I numbered the points for your convenience.
If you try to distract yourself or us with other topics you will find yourself on another vacation.
We need to exhaust the discussion on this thread before you are allowed to post more of your blasphemy elsewhere.
Your last effort on this thread consisted of little more than additional unsubstantiated claims, which now also require defending. I recommend you not expand the scope of subjects further to save confusion. But then chaos and confusion are the allies of Mohammed's religion (http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2134.0).
Please begin with #1 at the following link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8821#msg8821
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A YouTuber gave me a link to this book at Amazon. I found the following amusing review:
http://www.amazon.ca/Bible-Came-Arabia-Kamal-Salibi/dp/0330295195
2 of 3 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars Best crackpot theory I've ever read, Mar 22 2002
By
Jomo Mojo (Cleveland, OH) - See all my reviews
This review is from: Bible Came Frm Arabia (Hardcover)
Most crackpot theories tend to be slapdash, clumsy affairs. Not so Kamal Salibi's exquisitely well-wrought thesis: he has the philological skills to meticulously analyze hundreds of comparative Semitic roots and reinterpret ancient Hebrew in the light of Arabic. The consonantal outlines of Semitic writing make this possible, bringing into sharp relief the similarities between different Semitic languages and obscuring the differences. I've studied enough comparative Semitics myself to appreciate how ingeniously he handles the subject. Salibi was clever enough to knit together a huge number of Semitic roots into a widespread texture of highly realistic imaginary geography closely overlaid on the real geography. It was almost as though he had bent the earth's crust, bringing together Canaan and southwest Arabia to achieve this overlay. There are some circumstantial considerations to corroborate The Bible Came from Arabia. One is the phenomenon of "land-nama": people who migrate to a new land superimpose on it names remembered from the old country (for example, all the Old World names used in America, including many Biblical names). Also, travelers to 'Asir have remarked on the mystical impression its fertility made on them amidst the surrounding desert--as though it could have been the prototype for the Garden of Eden. Salibi's ingenious skill at tying together so many philological and geographical strands almost had me believing it. Against my better judgment, he made me want to believe it. This is the mark of a superior quality crackpot theory. Read this wonderful book if only for an example of the prodigies the human brain is capable of.
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I took time to reflect on the time and effort you are spending on trying to prove things with nothing but conjecture, You asking me to prove that Makkah existed due to Abraham and Ismael and I come to you with evidence that is much older and more authentic than any of your sources. Your failure to believe is not my fault and it is merely your loss due to your ignorance. No post that is in this forum has any credibility as it is based upon conjecture. The holy lands are Jerusalem, Makkah and Madina. These are the epicenters of the greatest benefit to mankind. Please read the history of your bible carefully and reflect upon the history of prophets carefully. The slander and misguided attempts to prove a point and to refute evidence based upon futile arguments is no way to conduct yourself. MAKKAH exists because of an instruction by God to Prophet Abraham, to rebuild the first House of worship constructed by the Prophet Adam. You cannot deny that the greatest gathering takes place there every year. It is the most visited holy site since the time of Abraham. Just because you cannot find evidence does not make it less than it is, It means that you are unable to bring evidence to the contrary of what is being said. Your failure does not in any way compel me to change the way I believe. Your conjecture does not allow you to embrace the truth.
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DO NOT post in any more threads in this forum until you answer the following post in this one.
You have posted several points in this post that should keep us going for many days if not weeks.
EVERY post in which you fail to use the quote function properly will be sent to your spam thread.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3298.msg13861#msg13861
Please READ the section under "quoting" at this link:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0
Push the quote button, then copy the upper left tag and paste it after - to the right of - the last [ /quote] tag, and then copy the pair of tags and paste it into the post anywhere you wish to break it.
I took time to reflect on the time and effort you are spending on trying to prove things with nothing but conjecture, You asking me to prove that Makkah existed due to Abraham and Ismael .......
That's ridiculous since the scriptural, historical, archaeological and geographical EVIDENCE tell us that Abraham was never within 1,000 of where Mecca was eventually settled, and he walked the earth over 1500 years before the first person ever lived in Mecca.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1213.0
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
Simply parroting nonsense from your 7th to 10th century AD created Muhammadan fiction, that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, will never make your empty and hollow claims magically come true, my friend. The truth hasn't changed just because you've been away for a little while.
......... and I come to you with evidence that is much older and more authentic than any of your sources.
If you are referring to the nonsense in the original post of this thread, what you brought was a foolish 1984 paper. Hardly old or authentic but rather a preposterous pile of false presumption with no archaeological support whatsoever, while THE Holy Land of Jerusalem is perfectly attested in the archaeological record.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=68.0
If you are referring to something else please explain and provide links to this "much older and more authentic" "evidence" that you have provided.
Your failure to believe is not my fault and it is merely your loss due to your ignorance.
But surely you can see that it is you that ignores THE Holy Land and the scriptures that are supported by the historical, archaeological and geographical records, in favor of the pens of 8th to 10th century AD semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers.
No post that is in this forum has any credibility as it is based upon conjecture.
How can you post something so patently false? Can't even you see that is Satan speaking for you? And again, simply repeating something won't make it magically come true.
This forum is full of historical, archaeological, and geographical support for the scriptures including, most importantly, the proof of the scriptures through fulfilled prophecy.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=43.0
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
The holy lands are Jerusalem, Makkah and Madina.
Certainly the scriptural, historical and archaeological EVIDENCE bears out Jerusalem THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
Makkah, however only dates back to the 4th century CE, and even Medina only dates back to the 6th century BC - over HALF A MILLENNIUM AFTER Abraham.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina#History
These are the epicenters of the greatest benefit to mankind. Please read the history of your bible carefully and reflect upon the history of prophets carefully.
As Christians that's exactly what we do.
The slander and misguided attempts to prove a point and to refute evidence based upon futile arguments is no way to conduct yourself.
Sadly it is TRUTH that you characterize as slander. Old Testament prophecy of the coming Messiah and His crucifixion was fulfilled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAQHFVn7H2Q
Muhammad 7 centuries later Muhammad proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel. THIS CANNOT BE DENIED.
MAKKAH exists because of an instruction by God to Prophet Abraham, to rebuild the first House of worship constructed by the Prophet Adam.
Please inform us as to ALL the sources from which you derive this scripture contrary historical record.
You cannot deny that the greatest gathering takes place there every year.
I cannot deny that the Saudis profit the very same way that the Quraish pagan's and Muhammad's uncle profited, from hosting people to come and engage in Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals around their Kaaba. Venerating the very same black stone idol that the Arabian pagan's venerated.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1050.0
Please watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE
(http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/42553621_mashaalap416.jpg)
Around the very same Kaaba that was filled with human sewage on several occasions.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1376/1401247982_3db4faa70e.jpg)
It is the most visited holy site since the time of Abraham.
Sorry, but only since the Yemeni pagan immigrants set up shop in the 4th century AD.
Just because you cannot find evidence does not make it less than it is, It means that you are unable to bring evidence to the contrary of what is being said.
ALL the EVIDENCE is EXACTLY CONTRARY to Islam's ridiculous claims.
Your failure does not in any way compel me to change the way I believe.
I am powerless my friend. Only Jesus can change your heart. All you have to do is honestly and sincerely ask Him.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Your conjecture does not allow you to embrace the truth.
You will not find truth the THE false prophet Muhammad's recycled Quraish/Arabian paganism.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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1. Please list ALL the sources from which you derive the following 6,000 year historical record.
MAKKAH exists because of an instruction by God to Prophet Abraham, to rebuild the first House of worship constructed by the Prophet Adam.
2. What is the whole subject of the Gospel?
Every post that does not answer directly to the two questions above will be sent to spam.
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1. Please list ALL the sources from which you derive the following 6,000 year historical record.
MAKKAH exists because of an instruction by God to Prophet Abraham, to rebuild the first House of worship constructed by the Prophet Adam.
2. What is the whole subject of the Gospel?
Every post that does not answer directly to the two questions above will be sent to spam.
1. The Quran and the Books of Hadith in Arabic in Makkah and Madina,
2, The whole Subkect of the Gospels (good news) that the way and the light is to combine the Jewish law "I have come to fulfill the law" with Love" that is the revelation of the Gospels
Unfortunately Mankind at the time lost this vital opportunity to do just that and distorted the message by focussing on the Divinity of the Messenger insted of the message like you doing right now.
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1. Please list ALL the sources from which you derive the following 6,000 year historical record.
MAKKAH exists because of an instruction by God to Prophet Abraham, to rebuild the first House of worship constructed by the Prophet Adam.
2. What is the whole subject of the Gospel?
Every post that does not answer directly to the two questions above will be sent to spam.
1. The Quran and the Books of Hadith in Arabic in Makkah and Madina,
Exactly! Which is why there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that supports the geographically impossible, unhistorical account, that Muslims cannot designate as other than "tradition". This is because it was in fact all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record from before the 6th century AD, yet it masquerades as 6,000 years of Muhammadan history. A "tradition" that is in direct conflict with the scriptures, in direct conflict with physical geography, in direct conflict with the historical record, and in direct conflict with the archaeological record of THE Holy Land that supports the scriptures.
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1. Please list ALL the sources from which you derive the following 6,000 year historical record.
MAKKAH exists because of an instruction by God to Prophet Abraham, to rebuild the first House of worship constructed by the Prophet Adam.
2. What is the whole subject of the Gospel?
Every post that does not answer directly to the two questions above will be sent to spam.
2, The whole Subkect of the Gospels (good news) that the way and the light is to combine the Jewish law "I have come to fulfill the law" with Love" that is the revelation of the Gospels
That's right. God loved the world so much He gave His Son as a sacrifice, just as Abraham loved God so much he was willing to sacrifice his son, because of His faith and trust in God.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And Jesus fulfilled the law through His crucifixion, death and resurrection.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
That's the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel. There has not been a single Christian over the last nearly 2,000 years who has denied the crucifixion, death and resurrection and His shed blood that saves all who have faith in Him.
His crucifixion just as prophesied in the Old Testament as detailed on this web page. I uploaded this web page specifically to help Muhammad's followers understand:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm
Even you believe Jesus was lifted to heaven bodily, and so do we.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
All you need to do now is understand the whole purpose of our Messiah, and why He was made manifest to the world.
Unfortunately Mankind at the time lost this vital opportunity to do just that ..........
Not at all. The whole subject of the Gospel remains perfectly intact. Here are the accounts of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah:
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
........ and distorted the message by focussing on the Divinity of the Messenger .........
The divinity of Christ is one of the things that one learns incidentally, while studying the whole subject of the Gospel, which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah.
It has been my experience that Muslims are the ones that focus on the divinity of Christ, in efforts to divert the conversation to run away from the whole subject of the Gospel - the single-most important thing to understand about the Gospel.
I don't believe an understanding of the divinity of Christ is even essential for salvation. Though it would be unwise for someone to outright reject something simply because they don't understand it. That kind of understanding comes over time. Certainly it isn't as important as believing the whole subject of the Gospel, which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Messiah and the blood He shed to save all from sin.
Also recognizing that Jesus is the Son, of God the Father, as proclaimed by hundreds of verses.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=611.0
Do you really believe that a good, loving and just God would suggest, that confessing that Jesus is the Son of God, would constitute a sin worse than raping a little child or committing cold-blooded mass murder?
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
........ insted of the message like you doing right now.
You mean like Muhammad did, over 500 years after the scriptures were closed, when he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel?
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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I started preparing this thread for Jews, from a version of the Tanach from a website of Orthodox Jews, in their forum section. Maybe it will help you see Muj.
http://www.islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=3389.0