The Holy Land of Prophets is Mecca, not Jerusalem (spam consolidated - retitled)

[resistingrexmundi]

Jerusalem- means Holy Sanctuary, and it is not an are protected by ALLAH, it is sacred but unlike MAKKAH housing the beit'u ALLAH (HOUSE OF ALLAH)  Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]

Jerusalem means city of Peace. And furthermore Yahweh foretold its' destruction as punishment on numerous occasions. A citiy's protection has no bearing on its' importance as a holy sight. Also you have just shown something we have been trying to tell you. Jerusalem is indeed old. It has archaelogical and historical evidence to support its' claims. Mecca does not. It only dates back to the 4th century AD at best. That is the whole point. If Mecca were the epicenter of God's worship their should be history and archaelogy to back it up. Not just a bunch of 7th and 8th century claims.

The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did)  the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!

First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars. And yes it is a hypothesis as I have shown you. The guy even admits as much at the start of the article. So start answering some questions.

1. If no historical or archaelogical evidence exists to prove Mecca existed before 4 AD how could it have been the epicenter of God's worship?
2. If Muhammad did not leave his bed how did he supposedly visit "the farthest mosque"?
3. What Temple did Muhammad visit, enter and pray at before ascending to heaven?
4. Seeing that the Quran mentions a journey to a Mosque that did not exist during the lifetime of Muhammad, how can you consider the Quran to be 100% the word of God?
5.In light of the fact that both the Quran and the Islamic traditions contain this historical error, how can you trust either source to provide you with reliable information on the life of Muhammad and the first Muslims?

You have shown a pattern of posting and making accusations. I have answered your questions. Please show common courtesy and start by answering these.

[Peter]

First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.

And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.

[resistingrexmundi]

First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.

And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.

Kind of stuck then aren't they considering Aisha said his body never left the bed. Given Muhammad's lack of knowledge about the area we could then logically conclude he was either delusional or lying.

[Peter]

My friend, if the Holy Land was in Mecca, why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.

So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used in the past, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Then he and his flying donkey-mule flew off to heaven, from the rock on the temple mount, to have a powwow with the prophets.

Remember, Abu Bakar (the first assistant of Mohammed who became his first Caliph) confirmed Mohammed's descriptions of the temple he had visited, because Abu Baker claimed he had once taken a journey to Jerusalem and had seen the temple himself, and remembered it to be just as Mohammed had described it.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!"

Jerusalem- means Holy Sanctuary, and it is not an are protected by ALLAH, it is sacred but unlike MAKKAH housing the beit'u ALLAH (HOUSE OF ALLAH)

Completely non-responsive post, but I will indulge this unrelated subject for the benefit of Muslim read-only participants with open hearts and minds that are genuinely seeking the truth.

The temple in Jerusalem was torn down - every stone - just as Jesus prophesied.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The reason for the prophecy, of course, is because the Messiah was in the process of heralding a new covenant, and atonement of sin is through His shed blood, replacing the animal sacrifices in the temple of the the old covenant.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

The temple of God was indeed rebuilt.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

And that's just what the Messiah did through His death and resurrection.
In the Christian era there is only one temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Not the Quraish's pagan kaaba and their black stone moon god idol - but the corporate body of Christ is the temple of God in the Christian era.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

"Through the Spirit"

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

[Peter]

Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]

The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did)  the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!

NOW NO MORE OBFUSCATION READ THE POST AGAIN.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2064.msg8607#msg8607
"....why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?"

[Mujaheed]

Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[12] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[13]

The visit of the prophet clearly demonstrates that all the Prophets of ALLAH are muslim, lived and were sent by ALLAH to mankind, we do not deny any Prophethood of the OT prophets, we do deny the false claims made by subsequent writers that have misled (as Jesus told they did)  the masses. We deny the interpretation given by PAGAN writers (GREEKS AND ROMANS) that have changed the very Geography of the BIBLE. READ THE ARTICLE< IT IS NOT AN HYPOTHESIS IT IS A STUDY!!

NOW NO MORE OBFUSCATION READ THE POST AGAIN.
"....why do you suppose Mohammed bothered to ride his fanciful flying donkey-mule all the way to the (at the time non-existent) temple in Jerusalem that he also lied about entering in and praying in? What was the ring Mohammed tethered his fabled flying beast to, that was "used by the prophets", doing in Jerusalem if they were born, lived and were buried in Mecca?"

Please read accounts of the mi'raag before attempting to comment instead of taking Hadith out of context.
islam is not separate or a stand alone religion, all its principles are based on the previous prophettic traditions and teachings. Your attempt to show archeologically from Greeks and Roman politicians that were very strategic in the translation of the OT is not and accurate record as many a scholar has proven, false sites and unproven claims abound from the OT yet you persist with arguments based on absurdity as it is what you prefer to believe despite proof that gives credible evidence of the Arabian account.

I personally don't need archeological conjecture as it is a science of guess work and differing scholarly opinions, I don't take the word of Roman and Greek Pagans, Jesus warned of the Scribes and Pharisees writing in his name, I cannot take the word of a conjecturer like Rafat Amari as he has an hypothesis with absolutely no archeological evidence and bases his work on PAGAN HISTORIANS BASED IN ALEXANDRIA NO LESS< BUSY TRANSLATING THE OT INTO PAGAN GREEK.

[Peter]

Your post is non-responsive to the questions raised by YOUR TOPIC. You were warned. That's it. Since 2 day bans haven't quite helped you see that you need to answer questions, rather than obfuscating and being entirely non-responsive, a 5 day ban is in order.
Upon your return do not stray from this thread until you are given the OK. Give direct and succinct replies to the questions, and to subsequent replies to your replies. If you do otherwise you will be banned again. No more warnings, since you ignore them anyway.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632

Also 278 posts, ignoring our continuous begging and pleading for you to learn how to quote, is more than enough time. Goes way beyond sheer laziness. Any more goofed up posts on your return will be sent to spam until you repair them.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=39.0

[Peter]

Remaining non-responsive posts to the questions, and dithering on with repetitive Mohammedan blasphemy, resulted in another ban. That and any further obfuscation will be moved to chat extensions.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2091.0

Anyone that would like to stand in for our friend and actually answer the questions, to support the notion that the prophets were born, lived and died in Mecca, rather than Jerusalem, is more than welcome to reply here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8632#msg8632

[Peter]

First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.

And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.

And it may get even worse than that.....

"The first such woman was none but his first cousin-sister, Umm Hani bt Abu Talib. Muhammad passionately fell in love with her, but for some unknown reason his beloved uncle, Abu Talib did not give her hand to Muhammad when Muhammad requested. Instead, she was married to a pagan, Hibayrah. But Muhammad's adulterous relation with Umm Hani (real name Fakitah, also known as Hind) continued. He used to sleep in her house, when no one was around. Such an incidence took place when Muhammad returned from his failed mission at Taif, after the deaths of his first wife, Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib. Returning from Taif, he took shelter in Ka'ba. But at nightfall, when all were asleep, he stealthily went to Umm Hani's house and spent the night with her. When the people did not find him at Ka'ba, they went looking for him and when he was discovered in the house of Umm Hani, he was embarrassed, so was Umm Hani. To hide the truth, he concocted the story of his night journey to Jerusalem and Paradise from Umm Hani's house (more precisely, from her bed), which many converted Muslims found too incredible to believe and left Islam. This made him sad and withdrawn. Soon, after such an adulterous affair was leaked out, he left Mecca and settled in Medina. But his undying love for Umm Hani remained aflame."

In other words Mohammed was perhaps laughed out of Mecca and compelled to settle elsewhere (Medina) through sheer embarrassment and demonstrated hypocrisy. Aisha was likely just helping Mohammed with his story.
For the full article and sources, or to chat regarding that particular subject go to that link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1039.msg3990#msg3990

Umm Hani Fakitah Hind

Islamic accounts of Mohammed's whereabouts

Another

[Mujaheed]

First of all Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. He said he visited Al Aqsa Mosque. The one's writing the fiction later identified it as Jerusalem. But here is the kicker. They ascribed Muhammad as describing a building that didn't exist at the time. Furthermore Aisha said Muhammad had not left his bed that night. So at the best this was a dream. All it clearly demonstrates is that Muhammad was delusional and the one's who wrote the 7th and 8th century "history" were liars.

And it gets worse. They can't pretend it was a vision or dream. Ibn 'Abbas, the most respected and authoritative so-called reporter of Mohammed's life precluded that possibility.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

Secondly because the Muslims whole claim to Jerusalem as part of the foundation of Mohammed's religion is the rock on the temple mount, where Mohammed's flying donkey mule was to have launched off from, for the leg the trip to heaven. Can't hardly have a physical location, be a part of a vision or dream, 1200 kilometers away.

And it may get even worse than that.....

"The first such woman was none but his first cousin-sister, Umm Hani bt Abu Talib. Muhammad passionately fell in love with her, but for some unknown reason his beloved uncle, Abu Talib did not give her hand to Muhammad when Muhammad requested. Instead, she was married to a pagan, Hibayrah. But Muhammad's adulterous relation with Umm Hani (real name Fakitah, also known as Hind) continued. He used to sleep in her house, when no one was around. Such an incidence took place when Muhammad returned from his failed mission at Taif, after the deaths of his first wife, Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib. Returning from Taif, he took shelter in Ka'ba. But at nightfall, when all were asleep, he stealthily went to Umm Hani's house and spent the night with her. When the people did not find him at Ka'ba, they went looking for him and when he was discovered in the house of Umm Hani, he was embarrassed, so was Umm Hani. To hide the truth, he concocted the story of his night journey to Jerusalem and Paradise from Umm Hani's house (more precisely, from her bed), which many converted Muslims found too incredible to believe and left Islam. This made him sad and withdrawn. Soon, after such an adulterous affair was leaked out, he left Mecca and settled in Medina. But his undying love for Umm Hani remained aflame."

In other words Mohammed was perhaps laughed out of Mecca and compelled to settle elsewhere (Medina) through sheer embarrassment and demonstrated hypocrisy. Aisha was likely just helping Mohammed with his story.
For the full article and sources, or to chat regarding that particular subject go to that link.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1039.msg3990#msg3990

Umm Hani Fakitah Hind

Islamic accounts of Mohammed's whereabouts

Another

Regarding why Muhammad went to Jerusalem and meet all the prophets perhaps you should direct that Question at GOD and ask GOD if Muhammad was created by GOD as human being, perhaps you can also ASK GOD WHY HE ALLOWED MUHAMMAD TO HAVE SUCH A HUGE IMPACT ON THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE< OR PERHAPS YOU COULD ASK GOD IF MUHAMMAD WAS SENT BY GOD TO CORRECT ALL THE CONJECTURE OF THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS>

Secondly read your dialogue, it is filled with words like, perhaps he, it is more than likely, in other words (you mean your words), it could be that he spent the night, and that is the tone of hypocrite, conjecture onlies on opinions on more conjecture.

WHAT YOU SAYING IS GOD ONLY ALLOWS MIRACLES TO HAPPEN TO PEOPLE FROM ISRAEL< IN OTHER WORDS GOD IS ONLY A GOD TO ISRAELIS???, YOU NEVER HEARD OF NON JEWISH MIRACLES? ARABS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE HUMAN??? GOD"S CREATION?? MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD"S WILL ON EARTH??? WHAT A BIGOT AND RACIST YOU ARE< PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ARABS< TAKE THE BEAM OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE< REPLACE YOUR VILENESS AND HATRED WITH THE LOVE AND OPEN HEARTEDNESS OF NABI EESA born of Mariam,

STOP USING YOUR LOGIC IN ISLAM APPLY IT TO YOUR OWN DOCTRINES AND SEE THE ABSURDITY OF THE HISTORY OF JERUSALEM< LOOK AT THE TWISTING OF HISTORY TO SUIT THE THEN POLITICIANS AND RULERS,

EXODUS IS FROM YOUR HOMELAND AND NOT TO YOUR HOMELAND

[resistingrexmundi]

Mujaheed you have once again missed the point wonderfully. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey? And you have yet to answer a question based on simple logic. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God? Jerusalem contains an extensive record and their is not the first scrap of evidence of a single person from Israel ever going to Mecca in Biblical times to do anything.

Furthermore you can tone down the rhetoric. Noone has made the claim that

GOD ONLY ALLOWS MIRACLES TO HAPPEN TO PEOPLE FROM ISRAEL< IN OTHER WORDS GOD IS ONLY A GOD TO ISRAELIS???, YOU NEVER HEARD OF NON JEWISH MIRACLES? ARABS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE HUMAN??? GOD"S CREATION?? MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD"S WILL ON EARTH???

So your unfounded claims of us being...

A BIGOT AND RACIST YOU ARE< PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ARABS

...is not only unwarranted but completely absurd. You have been warned of your language here already. DO NOT make me warn you again or your ban will continue. Now if you wish to continue your assertion of Mecca being the Holy Land you can first answer these two questions.

1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?

[Mujaheed]

1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?

To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity. Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa. You are asking the question as if the religion of Islam is different and the Arabs were located in the Americas or Europe. Islam is the natural progression from the religion of all the prophets of GOD. Hence Jerusalem is a very holy site according to followers of the Prophets.

Why do you suppose the Jews outnumbered the Arabs in the time of the Prophet in Madina? What were GOD's People doing 1200 miles from the epicenter of their religion? Let me answer for you: They were waiting for the Comforter to come deliver them from tyrant Rulers (Romans). They rejected Muhammad as they did most of the Prophets of ALLAH that is why the Prophet Muhammad was chosen to lead mankind to the truth.

2. Let me reword you statement, "you are the only individuals on the entire planet trying to conjure up the false notions of archeological evidence theory and because you have not excavated nor have any evidence you want everyone else to believe as you do. This is nothing new, the Jews reworded scripture and went astray, the mixed culture and politics into the religion and fell into great misfortune at each killing of the Prophets of GOD. They then admired and allowed the greeks to translate the remnants of scripture and later the Romans reworded the text to suit their agendas and voila we have the OT and the NT, it did not stop there, editing is still continuing unabated into the twenty first century with the New revised revised, version from the translated Greek Septuagint that has been copied and rewritten numerous times by unknown authors. Makkah will not fall victim to the same conjecture because of old wives tales told around campfires, distorted by each story teller until nothing of the original is left.

You already distorting the history that is available and using it to vilify the Religion of THE GOD of the Universe, the Most merciful the most benevolent, ALLAHu AKBAR, ALLAH (is greater than everything.) by calling it Jinn worship and pagan rituals, without the fact that it stems from the stories of the Prophets.

I am not deviating from the topic when I answer you, you want to post long unsubstantiated passages but want me to be concise, very nice ploy you have trying hard to make your words appear to be superior and authoritative (very lame ploy), Please note that most educated Muslims regards a person without Emaan (faith) as ignorant, the person is either a Mushrihk (ascribes partners to ALLAH most merciful) or a Dhaalim (cursed or lost like the Jews) or a Kaafir (disbeliever) or a faasiq (open transgressor or criminal) depending on his approach to a matter. All educated Muslims will dismiss your statements as absurd the moment they read it as the evidence comes from the Quran, all you doing is making me check the verses and the Hadith to further my Islamic knowledge and education, I just realised your purpose and I should thank you, you making me a better Muslim actually. I am asking serious Questions about Islam and getting closer to the Quran and the Sunnah.

Thank you..

[resistingrexmundi]

1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?

To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:

Allow me to lighten your load then. You are not leading me anywhere. I am sheltered in the hand of the Creator and saved by the blood of the Lamb. So you can keep Allah.

1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity.

Jerusalem is Holy because it was set apart to bear God's presence on earth in the OT era and the site of His Son's crucifixion in the NT. Mecca didn't exist until the 4th century AD. Period. You accuse others of conjecture but that is what your claim above is. There is NO evidence to suggest Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD and any hypothesis based on that claim just compounds that conjecture. Some Jews reject what some call the "trinity" for the same reason you do. You are both convinced that God cannot do something.

 Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa. You are asking the question as if the religion of Islam is different and the Arabs were located in the Americas or Europe. Islam is the natural progression from the religion of all the prophets of GOD. Hence Jerusalem is a very holy site according to followers of the Prophets.

Islam is a compilation of Judaism, Christianity, Zoastrianism, and pagan moon, sun and star worship. I have shown you in other threads the etymology of Allah's name as well as the various temples where he was worshipped as a moon deity. And you are missing the point. If the Holy Land was in Arabia there would have been no need for Muhammad to travel to Jerusalem to start with.

Why do you suppose the Jews outnumbered the Arabs in the time of the Prophet in Madina? What were GOD's People doing 1200 miles from the epicenter of their religion? Let me answer for you: They were waiting for the Comforter to come deliver them from tyrant Rulers (Romans). They rejected Muhammad as they did most of the Prophets of ALLAH that is why the Prophet Muhammad was chosen to lead mankind to the truth.

Because of the diaspora. Something else that history and the Bible both agree upon. The Assyrians drove them out of Israel in 722 BC and the Romans did so again in 70 AD. No mystery. Their were Jewish communities all over Europe, Asia and Africa. And the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Muhammad's actions show him to be anything but a comforter.

2. Let me reword you statement, "you are the only individuals on the entire planet trying to conjure up the false notions of archeological evidence theory and because you have not excavated nor have any evidence you want everyone else to believe as you do. This is nothing new, the Jews reworded scripture and went astray, the mixed culture and politics into the religion and fell into great misfortune at each killing of the Prophets of GOD. They then admired and allowed the greeks to translate the remnants of scripture and later the Romans reworded the text to suit their agendas and voila we have the OT and the NT, it did not stop there, editing is still continuing unabated into the twenty first century with the New revised revised, version from the translated Greek Septuagint that has been copied and rewritten numerous times by unknown authors. Makkah will not fall victim to the same conjecture because of old wives tales told around campfires, distorted by each story teller until nothing of the original is left.

You can reword whatever you like. In fact you must necessarily do so to make your strawman arguments. We can discuss the textual integrity of the Bible versus that of the Qur'an in the appropriate thread AFTER you have finished here. But no matter how much faith you have in Islam it is not going to create evidence for its' existence prior to Muhammad or Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD.

You already distorting the history that is available and using it to vilify the Religion of THE GOD of the Universe, the Most merciful the most benevolent, ALLAHu AKBAR, ALLAH (is greater than everything.) by calling it Jinn worship and pagan rituals, without the fact that it stems from the stories of the Prophets.

Islam stems from Muhammad's delusions of grandeur. But that isn't the topic being discussed at hand. You have yet to answer either of the two questions posed to you. Until you are prepared to do that please refrain from posting.

I am not deviating from the topic when I answer you, you want to post long unsubstantiated passages but want me to be concise, very nice ploy you have trying hard to make your words appear to be superior and authoritative (very lame ploy),

You do not answer the questions asked you. You go off on tangents and unrelated topics and post at length about things noone has mentioned. So spare me your critiques.

 Please note that most educated Muslims regards a person without Emaan (faith) as ignorant, the person is either a Mushrihk (ascribes partners to ALLAH most merciful) or a Dhaalim (cursed or lost like the Jews) or a Kaafir (disbeliever) or a faasiq (open transgressor or criminal) depending on his approach to a matter. All educated Muslims will dismiss your statements as absurd the moment they read it as the evidence comes from the Quran,

The Qur'an cannot be used as evidence for Mecca's existence prior to the 4th century AD no more than the Declaration of Independence can be used as evidence of Philidelphia's existence prior to the 16th century AD. To do that you have to look at historical and archealogical records that predate the event in question. Which is the whole point you are missing. There is none to prove Mecca existed prior to 4 AD. Period. And until you can provide such proof your argument is nothing more than conjecture.

 all you doing is making me check the verses and the Hadith to further my Islamic knowledge and education, I just realised your purpose and I should thank you, you making me a better Muslim actually. I am asking serious Questions about Islam and getting closer to the Quran and the Sunnah.

My purpose is to shed light on the dark places. Islam is such a dark place. The fact that you have proven yourself incapable or unwilling to use logic, deductive or inductive reasoning, empathy or show any humility has affirmed how strongly that darkness has gripped you. I pray for you my friend.

Thank you..

Hopefully oneday you will have a real reason to.

[Mujaheed]

Let me answer concisely, there is no archeological artifacts for Makkah in the possession of non-Muslims.

There are no historical records as the tradition of the Arabs is preserving history through poetry and anyone claiming that Makkah did not exists because they have examined historical text is doing so from baseless writings of Pagan Greek and Roman historians far removed from Arabia.

Stating something does not make it fact, just because you willing to believe something does not make it true or even relevant, this topic has no relevance to anything Islamic.

I believe the Quran is the Scripture from ALLAH sent to confirm that Jerusalem is Holy, but Makkah was given favor over Jerusalem as the Bani Israeel is cursed for their slaying of the Prophets of GOD and their persistence in changing the Words of GOD. Hence the Prophethood of Muhammad, and Makkah as the new epicenter for the Religion of GOD. The return to the Origin so to speak.

All the Scripture ad Prophets started in Makkah, then the Exodus to Jerusalem and then The return to the Holy Land of Makkah. Read the Bible carefully and eradicate the Pagan Greek and Roman influences and you will be left with Islam. Their was always one Religion Islam, All the Prophets of God are Muslim, and they all attested to "THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE!.

[resistingrexmundi]

Let me answer concisely, there is no archeological artifacts for Makkah in the possession of non-Muslims.

Let me answer concisely, there is no archaelogical evidence for Mecca prior 4 AD period.

There are no historical records as the tradition of the Arabs is preserving history through poetry and anyone claiming that Makkah did not exists because they have examined historical text is doing so from baseless writings of Pagan Greek and Roman historians far removed from Arabia.

Sorry but that excuse is as flacid as a wet noodle. There are archaelogical records as well as historical accounts for numerous arabic cities prior to the 4th century AD. IF Mecca had existed its' importance would have surely garnered notice. But this isn't the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia

Stating something does not make it fact, just because you willing to believe something does not make it true or even relevant, this topic has no relevance to anything Islamic.

Exactly. Which is why it is ironic you state Mecca is the true holy city of God and the epicenter of man's worship of God since the beginning of time given there is no evidence for its' existence prior to 4 AD.

I believe the Quran is the Scripture from ALLAH sent to confirm that Jerusalem is Holy, but Makkah was given favor over Jerusalem as the Bani Israeel is cursed for their slaying of the Prophets of GOD and their persistence in changing the Words of GOD. Hence the Prophethood of Muhammad, and Makkah as the new epicenter for the Religion of GOD. The return to the Origin so to speak.

Yes you believe those things. Because the Qur'an says so. Saying that the Qur'an is true because the Qur'an says so is circular reasoning. There is no external proof for any of those claims.

All the Scripture ad Prophets started in Makkah, then the Exodus to Jerusalem and then The return to the Holy Land of Makkah. Read the Bible carefully and eradicate the Pagan Greek and Roman influences and you will be left with Islam. Their was always one Religion Islam, All the Prophets of God are Muslim, and they all attested to "THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE!.

Wrong. The prophets came to man through the nation of Israel and Judah. They were chosen to be the conduit through which God would relate to man culminating in the life, ministry, and redemption of Jesus. And as I said before if you want to discuss the textual integrity of the Bible verses the Qur'an we can do that after you have made your case. You have thus far failed to do so.

[Mujaheed]

This is not deviating, I have to explain the following to you as you seem to be under a huge spell of misinformation.

What I have failed to do is convince you to leave conjecture lies, and opinions, that is all I have failed to do.
I have failed to convince you that the lies you follow, like Israel is a nation, Israel is a person renamed after being called Jacob and the offspring is Bani (children) of Israel (JACOB), the one tribe is Judah amongst the 12 Tribes, the lies been perpetuated long enough became a truth as did many of the lies. Think of all the Invaders and destroyers of the Bani Israeel like before the greeks and Romans and many Nations which obviously eradicated the pure blood of the tribes through rape and selling the woman off in slavery one after the other, how do you think an Afro-Semetic tribe whose origins are in Africa happen to have fair skins?

You have such a twisted take on history that it would take decades for me to undo all the falsehood, conjecture and lies told by the historians, most Muslims, will not enter into conversations with people that come from Jahilliyyah (ignorant) practices. I am hoping that I am not wasting my time with hard headed individuals that are puffed up with pride and the devil.

Why do you think GOD sent Prophet after Prophet after Prophet to the Bani Israeel? because they were favored as they are the lineage of the Prophet Ibraheem, when they tried to Kill Jesus, they became cursed by ALLAH, the followers of Nabi EESA were then led astray, and the final Prophet was sent from the lineage of Nabi Ibraheem, from where it all Started, Makkah.

[resistingrexmundi]

This is not deviating, I have to explain the following to you as you seem to be under a huge spell of misinformation.

This coming from someone who has not shown a single shred of evidence for his claims outside of "the Qur'an says so".

What I have failed to do is convince you to leave conjecture lies, and opinions, that is all I have failed to do.
I have failed to convince you that the lies you follow, like Israel is a nation, Israel is a person renamed after being called Jacob and the offspring is Bani (children) of Israel (JACOB), the one tribe is Judah amongst the 12 Tribes, the lies been perpetuated long enough became a truth as did many of the lies.

Israel was indeed Jacob. His children became the leaders of their respective tribes. Hence the 12 tribes of Israel. But the nation was also called Israel. It was split into two nations after Solomon's death. The upper kingdom named Israel and the southern kingdom became Judah. That is an historical fact that can be verified historically and archaelogically.

 Think of all the Invaders and destroyers of the Bani Israeel like before the greeks and Romans and many Nations which obviously eradicated the pure blood of the tribes through rape and selling the woman off in slavery one after the other, how do you think an Afro-Semetic tribe whose origins are in Africa happen to have fair skins?

Their was no "pure" blood of Israel. Abraham was a Mesopotamian from Ur of Chaldees. He was not from Africa. His son Isaac begat Jacob who became Israel and begat the sons that became the respective leaders of tribes of Israel. Each of these sons took wives and their wives entered into the convenant along with their husbands. To be an Israelite also meant you had to enter into the Covenant that God made with Abraham and renewed with Isaac and Jacob.

You have such a twisted take on history that it would take decades for me to undo all the falsehood, conjecture and lies told by the historians, most Muslims, will not enter into conversations with people that come from Jahilliyyah (ignorant) practices. I am hoping that I am not wasting my time with hard headed individuals that are puffed up with pride and the devil.

You keep accusing others of conjectures and lies but you believe a bunch of stories penned in the 7th and 8th century as historical fact. Amazing. Also I have warned you of false accusation and making insulting claims. You may believe me to be puffed up with pride and the devil but you can keep such sentiments to yourself if you wish to continue this discourse.

Why do you think GOD sent Prophet after Prophet after Prophet to the Bani Israeel? because they were favored as they are the lineage of the Prophet Ibraheem, when they tried to Kill Jesus, they became cursed by ALLAH, the followers of Nabi EESA were then led astray, and the final Prophet was sent from the lineage of Nabi Ibraheem, from where it all Started, Makkah.

God sent prophet after prophet to witness to the nation of Israel and Judah to stay true to God AND to reveal more of God's future plans. Those plans culminated in Jesus through whom the whole world is offered salvation. Muhammad was no prophet and even admitted to being confused by satan to reveal false revelations. That automatically disqualified him from being a true prophet. And if he couldn't tell if he was speaking to God or satan that time who is to say he ever could? And he gave no sign or prediction to verify his claims to prophethood and his character was abysmal. And as I have already pointed out to you there is no evidence of Mecca existing prior to 4 AD. If their is provide a link to it and we can go from there. If you cannot do that then this subject will go no further.

[Mujaheed]

CONCLUSION YOU PREFER THE LIES PENNED BY EUROPEANS, YOU HAVE NO WAY OF VERIFICATION OF THE UR STORY OTHER THAN GREEK AND ROMAN SOURCES, THE ARCHEOLOGY IS PURE CONJECTURE>

The Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical Semitic languages in the Middle East, is thought to have been originally from either the Arabian Peninsula (particularly around Yemen) or the adjacent Ethiopian highlands. But its region(actual location either Yemen or Ethiopia) of origin is still much debated and uncertain with, for example, a recent bayesian analysis identifying an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant around 5,750 BP with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 2,800 BP.

HOW IS IT THAT THE LANGUAGE MIGRATED FROM AFRICA To THE NORTH BUT ACCORDING TO YOU THE TRBES MIGRATED FROM THE EAST? SoMEONE IS LYING!!!

 The Semitic language family is also considered a component of the larger Afroasiatic macro-family of languages. Identification of the hypothetical proto-Semitic region of origin is therefore dependent on the larger geographic distributions of the other language families within Afroasiatic.

The concept of "Semitic" peoples is derived from Biblical accounts of the origins of the cultures known to the ancient Hebrews. Those closest to them in culture and language were generally deemed to be descended from their forefather Shem. Enemies were often said to be descendants of his cursed nephew, Canaan. In Genesis 10:21-31, Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and Arpachshad: the Biblical ancestors of the Arabs, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc., all of whose languages are closely related; the language family containing them was therefore named Semitic by linguists. However, the Canaanites and Amorites also spoke a language belonging to this family, and are therefore also termed Semitic in linguistics, despite being described in Genesis as sons of Ham (See Sons of Noah).

HOW IS I A NATION FORMED? THEY ARE OF THE SAME FAMILY BUT OVER TIME BECAME A DIFFERENT NATION? ONLY IF INVADERS MIX THE SEED, WHICH MEANS THAT IT IS A LINEAGE NOT A NATION!!

THE NATION IS AFRO-SEMETIC WHO BECAME ARAB THEN AN OFFSPRING TO THE BANI ISRAEEL

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT,

I AM SURE THAT THEY STOPPED AT MAKKAH DURING THE MIGRATION ABRAHAM FROM HIS HOMELAND.
THE TWO ACCOUNTS IN THE BIBLE IS VERY CONTRADICTORY AND THE AS I HAVE SAID I WILL NOT TRUST THE GREEK AND ROMAN TAKE ON THE HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY> THE ARCHEOLOGY IS VERY MUCH DISPUTED WITH THOUSANDS OF THEORIES FROM EVERY ARCHEOLOGISTS (ONLY CHRISTIAN EUROPEAUN INDOCTRINATED SCHOLARS SEEM TO AGREE!!

The modern linguistic meaning of "Semitic" is therefore derived from (though not identical to) Biblical usage. In a linguistic context the Semitic languages are a subgroup of the larger Afroasiatic language family (according to Joseph Greenberg's widely accepted classification) and include, among others: Akkadian, the ancient language of Babylon and Assyria; Amorite, Amharic, the official language of Ethiopia; Tigrinya, a language spoken in Eritrea and in northern Ethiopia; Arabic; Aramaic, still spoken in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean Christians and Mandeans; Canaanite; Ge'ez, the ancient language of the Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox scriptures which originated in Yemen; Hebrew; Maltese; Phoenician or Punic; Syriac (a form of Aramaic); and South Arabian, the ancient language of Sheba/Saba, which today includes Mehri, spoken by only tiny minorities on the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula.

CONNECT THE DOTS

[resistingrexmundi]

Mujaheed your strawman tactics are as transparent as your character. I didn't say the language wasn't afro-semitic. I said that Abraham was from UR of Chaldees in Mesopotamia. Languages change and are adapted over time. The decendants of Abraham would have been darker in color though not likely to be black. Over time through the intermarriage with those who came into the Covenant the physical features would have changed and the constant travel would have meant their language changed over time as well ending up as Hebrew. But none of that registers with you because you believe that a man who gave no prophecy or performed a single miracle, who had no witnesses to his "revelations", who lived centuries after the events in question told you otherwise. The Qur'an is an historical joke and should be seen as such. I have had enough of your blah blah blah. Either give a link with evidence for Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD or do not post on this topic anymore.

PS. Perhaps you missed this part.

Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean

Those language groups cover large areas including MUCH of Asia. So thanks for more corroboration on the Ur connection.

Good day.

[Mujaheed]

Mujaheed your strawman tactics are as transparent as your character. I didn't say the language wasn't afro-semitic. I said that Abraham was from UR of Chaldees in Mesopotamia. Languages change and are adapted over time. The decendants of Abraham would have been darker in color though not likely to be black. Over time through the intermarriage with those who came into the Covenant the physical features would have changed and the constant travel would have meant their language changed over time as well ending up as Hebrew. But none of that registers with you because you believe that a man who gave no prophecy or performed a single miracle, who had no witnesses to his "revelations", who lived centuries after the events in question told you otherwise. The Qur'an is an historical joke and should be seen as such. I have had enough of your blah blah blah. Either give a link with evidence for Mecca's existence prior to 4 AD or do not post on this topic anymore.

PS. Perhaps you missed this part.

Turkey and Armenia by Assyrian-Chaldean

Those language groups cover large areas including MUCH of Asia. So thanks for more corroboration on the Ur connection.

Good day.

What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals, you tell a story from a single viewpoint with no references of the actual places. In the event any book that is not Euro-centric is brought to you you will argue with known european deviated scholarly works that has confused the world to such a degree that we now have chaos everywhere.

Follow the Logic, GOD's {People Migrated north to Jerusalem, the exodus is from the Homeland to the Place of Peace, not from the place of peace to egypt and back again, Ludicrous history with no historical basis.

Read the history of the Arabs in Arabic. Read another point of view, and get a true perspective of Go's People.





 

[Peter]

1. If The Holy Land was Arabia and specifically Mecca why would Muhammad have traveled to Jerusalem in his so-called night journey?
2. If NO ARCHAELOGICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for Mecca exists prior to the 4th century AD then how could it have been the epicenter of man's worship of God?

To answer the question without my observation of your character and with love and Patience, in order to draw closer to ALLAH, my understanding is that:
1. Jerusalem is Holy (obviously) as the Prophets (from the Bani Israeel (lineage of Jacob) were instructed to go to Jerusalem) ........

Go to Jerusalem from where?
From Mecca? Are you saying the 12 tribes were from Mecca?
When did they go?
According to what?
Were all the prophets from Mecca but then migrated to Jerusalem?
How do you suppose they did this over the span of so many hundreds of years that they existed? Individually born in Mecca and then walked to Jerusalem?
Where's the evidence? The same place the evidence of Mecca prior to the Christian era is hiding?

....... and establish the Deen (religion of ALLAH hence the monotheistic belief of the Jews and their complete and utter rejection of the Trinity. Part of the Journey is to meet the Prophets of GOd that came before Muhammad, the meeting place was Masjidul Aqsa.

So when was Masjidul Aqsa built?
Google it.
It was built after Mohammed was dead. So what "prophets" attended that unholy 7th century place?
Indeed Mohammed lied about going into a (non-existent) mosque to pray, when he lied about riding his flying donkey-mule, to Jerusalem.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

So your false premise went right out the window. Try again.

[Mujaheed]

There was always a Masjid there, from Abraham building it with Isaac as he did rebuilt Masjidul Haram(Baitullah) It is also the site of another Prophet of ALLAH Nabi Sulaymaan peace be upon him.

The Prophets are all connected as the Muslim Ummah is one body. The preceding prophets laid the foundations for the later ones. The core belief and obedience to ALLAH was lost with translations and interpretations and doctrines written by men, hence the need for messengers and good men to be sent as lberators (from tyrant oppressors), warners (against evil and deviation) and bringers of glad tidings (Injeel of nabi EESA AND MUHAMMAD).

It is not difficult to understand when you seek knowledge with your objective: submission to The Creator of the everything in existence, the lord of the Universe, king of the Day of Judgement,The Unique One without a beginning nor and ending, The most merciful the Most benevolent ALLAH.

[Peter]

There was always a Masjid there, from Abraham building it with Isaac as he did rebuilt Masjidul Haram(Baitullah) It is also the site of another Prophet of ALLAH Nabi Sulaymaan peace be upon him.

A Masjid is a building dedicated to Islamic worship. The one that you referred to was not built until after Mohammed was dead. Which one did Mohammed pray in when he rode his flying donkey-mule to Jerusalem?

[Mujaheed]

A Masjid is a house of GOD (translated into English for those that dont speak Holy Scripture language)Translated as Temple (PAGAN HOUSE OF WORSHIP) CHURCH (ENGLISH PAGAN TEMPLE)

[Peter]

You've raised even so many more unsupported claims that it is going to take a long time just to work out the issues on this page, let alone the unanswered stuff from the prior page, some of which I partially agree with like.....
"What does not seem to register with you is that the history given to you is concoted, conforms to made up truths by Godless individuals...." http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2057.msg8759#msg8759
I would have to agree with regard to the papers on Islam since, in Rafat Amari's case, he had to rely so heavily on the Hadith, Islamic reporters and Islamic so-called "scholars", as evidenced by his bibliographies as in these examples.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1267.msg4917#msg4917
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1784.msg7347#msg7347
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
As do we in this forum.

A Masjid is a house of GOD (translated into English for those that dont speak Holy Scripture language) ......

Which for Muslims means 7th century AD Quraish Arabic.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1693.msg6952#msg6952

.....Translated as Temple (PAGAN HOUSE OF WORSHIP) CHURCH (ENGLISH PAGAN TEMPLE)

Now please answer the question.
Which mosque did Mohammed pray in when he rode his flying donkey-mule to Jerusalem?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1253.0