Author Topic: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1  (Read 10797 times)

Peter

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Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« on: February 15, 2010, 02:28:03 PM »
Come on my friend. Let's move out of the dark alley of personal messaging to the light of the forum where we can quote each other, and hold each other accountable, over time.
friendofutube2009's words designated within [[[[[  ]]]]]

I wrote
___________________

Let me try a quicker version of my first reply.

[[[[[Dear PeteWaldo,

I came to know that you are one of the staunchest apologetics of Christianity against Islam. In the spirit of dialogues to understand each others views, I would like to invite you to a series of discussion about our respective beliefs. After the discussion, you are of course entitled to your belief however I refute it and in the same token I am also entitled to mine however you refute it. The important thing for me is I understand your belief and, on the other hand, you understand mine.

But before I mention the topics that are worthy of discussing, I want to let you know immediately that I am not for mud-slinging or character assassination of each religions prophets because this will lead to nowhere except ill will and hatred against each other. We will leave this style of discussion to others in the Internet of which Youtube is replete with.]]]]

Typical obfuscation of the truth about Mohammed as bequeathed by your own books.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

[[[[[I have seen your quotations of Bukhari related to sex, murder, etc which are explained and refuted well by our ulemas and other Islamic scholars. For you they are worthy of discussion but for me they are not for whatever you throw at us on sex, murder, pillage, there is an equivalent match in your religion. If you throw to me that Muslim are terrorists and are nowadays killing people, I have the answers to that too. That is the reason why I do not want to discuss these issues and I do not want a tete-a-tete mud-slinging style of discussion.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=336.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=934.0

[[[[[Moreover, whatever character assassination you throw at our Prophet, we can just say for the sake of argument that unlike your belief of Jesus as God, he is just a human being and a prophet. And that does not diminish nor taint the fact that what he received from God is untainted by his human actions.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0

[[[[[What I am interested to discuss, however, are issues which are purely dogmatic and basically form the tenets of our two religions. Based on this, I would propose the following subject as worthy of discussion according to importance:

1 Is Jesus God?

Note: I am very interested on this because this is THE main contention between Islam and Christianity. Christians say Jesus is God, Muslims say NO, he is only a prophet of God.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

[[[[[2 Is Trinity Biblical and Preached By Jesus?

Note: This is THE second MAIN contention between Christians and Muslims. Christians say it is scriptural and is preached by Jesus and Muslims say it is the invention of Paul and the Church based on pagan practices of the time. In order to accommodate them to the new emerging religion, Paul is prepared to modify the teaching of Jesus to their liking.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0

[[[[[3 Which is Gods Word, the Bible or the Quran?]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=96.0

[[[[[Note: This is THE third main contention between Christians and Muslims. Christians say that their Bible is the literal word of God or inspired by God to the Bible writers and Muslims disagree that it is corrupted and such God revealed an uncorrupted Book, the Quran which of course you believed to be not the word of God and is corrupted.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=372.0

[[[[[4 Muhammed (pbuh) In The Bible

Note: This is interesting because Christians say Muhammed (pbuh) is phony and Muslims say he just continue the original and pristine teaching of Jesus. In discussing this, I want us to discuss only the real issues and NOT character assassination. If we can prove that Muhammed (pbuh) is mentioned in your Bible, then the contention between us will be lesser. I know that you will fight tooth and nail to prove your case and I will also to prove my case.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0

[[[[[5 Paul or Muhammed (pbuh): Who is the Anti-Christ?]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=252.0

[[[[[Note: Christians claim that Muhammed (pbuh) is the anti-Christ while Muslims say it is Paul and not Muhammed (pbuh) who just continues the pristine monotheism teaching of Jesus (pbuh).

The above are I think more than enough to explore your belief and mine. You can of course suggest your own but it should not involve topics which require me or you to throw mud against each other. And as I am always suggesting, we will discuss the above in the spirit of professionalism and in a gentlemans way without name-calling and character assassination.

Having said that, let me start the ball rolling by tackling THE main disagreement between us. In here, I will not use my Quran or any other Islamic belief to prove my point but rather use your own to advance my case since.]]]]]

The main disagreement in your view but not from a Gospel perspective.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=43.0

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 02:38:12 PM »
[[[[JESUS IS NOT GOD and here are my arguments. I want you refute each one but support it with proof and NOT generalities:

A - FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT

(1)God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19).

It's saying God is not humanity.

Why not try a little investigation into Hebrew and Greek idioms?

"The phrase 'son of man' is a primarily Semitic idiom that originated in Ancient Mesopotamia, used to denote humanity or self. The phrase is also used in Judaism and Christianity. The word used in the Greek, translated as Son of man is, Anthropos. As an idiom for the future human, it may better be translated genderneutrally as offspring of Mankind, or Man's child."

COMMENTARY: Since Jesus says many times in the Bible (and is referred to) that he is a man and son of man, he cannot be God.

Jesus as manifest to us on earth, is saying He is the Son of humanity. How about a few verses?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.msg174#msg174

If Jesus is not God how can the Son of man forgive sins? Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

If Jesus is not God how can the Son of man be Lord of the sabbath day? Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

If Jesus isn't God how can the Son of man send forth His angels? Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

If Jesus wasn't crucified, how could the Son of man be risen from the dead? Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

If Jesus isn't God how could the Son of man save the lost? Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

If Jesus didn't sacrifice Himself to save us from our sins, how is it the Son of man ransomed His life for us? Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.msg174#msg174

This clearly rules out Jesus as God because he was born of a woman, Mary.

Indeed He was conceived by Mary. Did Mary have Jesus all by herself? If not then who was Jesus' Father?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0

Who was Jesus the Son of besides Mary? Who was his actual Father?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

Jesus as manifest to us on earth, is saying He is the Son of all humanity.
He was manifest on earth to provide the perfect example for all mankind.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 02:41:50 PM »
(2) How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? (Job 25:4-6).

COMMENTARY: Since Jesus is born of a woman (a worm in the sight of God), he can never even compare to God.

Again that's a reference to humanity, or humankind.
Even you believe that Jesus was conceived by a virgin by the express will of God, unlike ANY other person in the history of mankind. Yet you blaspheme Him by calling Him a worm. Blasphemy falls from Satan's minions lips as naturally as a common greeting.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 02:46:02 PM »
(3)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (Exodus 20:4)

COMMENTARY: Every church, home, car of Christians has the graven image of Jesus which is a pagan practice. Moses and other OT prophets never made any image of their ONE God. Jesus said that he would do this too and NOT destroy it. It is NOT logical that he would introduce another form of God which is 3-IN-1, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

"Every church, home, car of Christians has the graven image of Jesus which is a pagan practice."
You are either foolish through your ignorance, or are a liar. The idolatry you associate with Christianity is of the Roman Church.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=75.0

This even as you bow to the pagan Ka'aba and that last surviving pagan rock god 5 times a day. Then have to go and march around and around it at least once in your life. While you pray the prayers of the heathen  daily while bowing to Mohammed's rock god.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The God of the Jews and Christians is omniscient. We don't have to bow in a specific direction, particularly to a pagan rock god.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 02:57:17 PM »
(4) I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, (Deuteronomy 5:6-9)

COMMENTARY: The Church make Jesus as God or part of God in the Trinity in their councils, one of which is the Council of Nicaea in 325AD based on the creed formulated by an Egyptian bishop Athanasius. Jesus did not order you to declare him as God.

It is Jesus Himself that declared Himself God. Christians simply recognize that fact through God's Word.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

Jesus never make a graven image of God, he has no other God beside Him. He did not bow down to himself nor bow down to the Holy Spirit nor did he instruct his disciples and followers to do so. Christian churches are full of idols and graven image of Jesus and his mother Mary who has now the improbable position of mother of God.

Jesus and God are one. One could say that Mary is the mother of God - but as He chose to manifest, or reveal Himself, through Jesus Christ the Messiah - on earth. Here He is in Old Testament prophecy

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0410 'el {ale}
shortened from 0352; TWOT - 93a; n m
AV - God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1,
Immanuel + 06005 2, might 1, strong 1; 245
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

We can see from Strong's word count that Immanuel is translated as upper-case "God" 213 times in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=571.0

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 02:57:27 PM »
[[[[[I have seen your quotations of Bukhari related to sex, murder, etc which are explained and refuted well by our ulemas and other Islamic scholars.]]]]

Almost forgot this. Muammar Qaddafi tried to run away from the hadith like you are. That makes you a "renegade" "infidel" like it did him. So, my friend, you're crusin' to get your head cut off - by those fundamentalist scholars that GET Mohammedan Islam - like Qaddafi almost did.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=892.0

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 03:10:08 PM »
B - FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT

(1) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.(John 5:30)

That's because Jesus and God are one. They are inseparable.
Did you read on a few verses? Who will be our judge?

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The very Son of God - the ONE mediator of mankind - that you deny will be our judge.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

COMMENTARY: Since he and God are the same, he can do everything by himself. Right? The Trinity says that the Father and the Son has the same essence. It follows that they have the same Will too. So since Jesus is speaking about a different Will, they cannot be of the same essence.

But that's exactly what Jesus declared they are.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

The "one" is in the Koine Greek neuter gender meaning exactly of one essence. That's why we find the Jews prepared to stone Him in the next verse.

Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

The time before that, that the Jews were going to stone Him, was when Jesus declared that He was before - that is existed before - Abraham.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:....

At the same time Jesus declared He was before Abraham, he declared His divinity.

Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

By the way, Allah does not mean "I AM" in Arabic. Archaeological evidence suggests that was the name of the moon god of the pagan Ka'aba you bow to 5 times a day.

 
In short, Jesus is NOT God.

Jesus was speaking as a man, manifest in the flesh, while He was on earth.
What did He say after He was crucified and resurrected?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 03:24:23 PM »
(6) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (Mark 12:29).

Thus you can see that Christianity is indeed monotheistic.

COMMENTARY: This is the BEST time to say that he is God or ONE and the SAME with God!

Who are you to say the best time for God to say something?

Why did he not say it?

Jesus repeatedly said He and God are one and the same. That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him. That's why they eventually crucified Him.

Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm#john_19
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

This is also the best time to say the Trinity: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Why is that the best time? How about as Jesus departed to reunite with God?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Do you deny that God has a Spirit or are you just a polytheistic hypocrite as you accuse Christians of being polytheist?
Sura 32:9 But HE fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something OF HIS SPIRIT. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0

What he answered is just fulfilling the God of Moses which is ONE and NOT triune.

God is one, and the Jews believe God has a Spirit too.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0

Here are a couple examples of how God manifest - or revealed - His Spirit to mankind and to His old covenant saints

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

If Moses and other prophets teach and worship only ONE God (the Father), why would Jesus suddenly destroy it to be 3-IN-1 (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) when in fact he said that he will NOT destroy the Torah and previous prophets even a minute tittle or dot he will fulfill (Matthew 5:17)?

But even you believe in 2-IN-1. God and His Spirit.
Sura 32:9 But HE fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something OF HIS SPIRIT. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Even Muslims call Mohammed's phony book the "Word" believed to be preserved on tablets in heaven.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2  The same was in the beginning with God.    3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

Here's the part that Mohammedans reject for eternal consequences

14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

This proves that he is NOT God nor part of a triune god.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 03:40:05 PM »
(7) GENEALOGIES OF JESUS: Here are the two genealogies according to Luke 3 and
Matthew 1:

According to Luke:

1. God 2. Adam 3. Seth 4. Enosh 5. Cainain 6. Mahalalel 7. Jared 8. Enoch 9. Methuselah 10. Lamech 11. Noah 12. Shem 13. Arphaxad 14. Cainan 15. Shelah 16. Eber 17. Peleg 18. Reu 19. Serug 20. Nahor 21. Terah 22. Abraham 23. Isaac 24. Jacob 25. Judah 26. Pharez 27. Hezron 28. Ram 29. Amminadab 30. Nahshon 31. Salmon 32. Boaz 33. Obed 34. Jesse 35. David 36. Nathan 37. Mattatha 38. Menna 39. Melea 40. Eliakim 41. Jonam 42. Joseph 43. Judah 44. Simeon 45. Levi 46. Matthat 47. Jorim 48. Eliezer 49. Joshua 50. Er 51. Elmadam 52. Cosam 53. Addi 54. Melchi 55. Neri 56. Shealtiel 57. Zerubbabel 58. Rhesa 59. Joanan 60. Joda 61. Josech 62. Semein 63. Mattathias 64. Mahath 65. Naggai 66. Hesli 67. Nahum 68. Amos 69. Mattathias 70. Joseph 71. Jannai 72. Melchi 73. Levi 74. Matthat 75. Eli 76. Joseph * 77. Jesus

According to Matthew:

1. Abraham 2. Isaac 3. Jacob 4. Judah & Tamar 5. Pharez 6. Hezron 7. Ram 8. Amminadab 9. Nahshon 10. Salmon & Rahab 11. Boaz & Ruth 12. Obed 13. Jesse 14. David & the wife of Uriah 15. Solomon 16. Rehoboam 17. Abijam 18. Asa 19. Jehoshaphat 20. Jehoram 21. Uzziah 22. Jotham 23. Ahaz 24. Hezekiah 25. Manasseh 26. Amon 27. Josiah 28. Jeconiah 29. Shealtiel 30. Zerubbabel 31. Abiud 32. Eliakim 33. Azor 34. Zadok 35. Achim 36. Eliud 37. Eleazar 38. Matthan 39. Jacob 40. Joseph & Mary * 41. Jesus

COMMENTARY: There are two problems here. First, no two names match in the same generation. For example, in Luke he started with God and then Adam.

But then your commentary would suggest that Matthew thought the first person in humanity was Abraham. That Matthew was ignorant to the fact that everything began with God. So surely you can see the foolishness in your commentary. What is clear is they had different starting points in mind with their genealogies. That we have different accounts by different Apostles demonstrates that they didn't simply get together and copy each others work. What this further demonstrates is that they were each inspired individually.

But in Matthew, he started with Abraham and then Isaac. Second, both gospels clearly state that Jesus was begotten by Joseph, not God.

The two genealogies of Jesus in and Matthew prove beyond any shadow of doubt that Jesus is just a normal human being sent by God to his own people.

Not at all. They were simply establishing the genealogical order of when Jesus was manifest to mankind.
It always perplexes me how Mohammedans can blaspheme so naturally with statements like "...Jesus is just a normal human being..." even as you believe He was the ONLY person ever conceived by a virgin by the will of God. Doesn't that ever strike you as peculiar to make such a contrary statement?

Else since the gospel writers were inspired by God, Jesus father should NOT have been Joseph the Carpenter but God in both accounts.

I don't know if you intend to lie or just lack reading skills.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

Indeed, in the eyes of unregenerates, Jesus "was supposed" to be Joseph's son. You are disqualifying yourself from even being a Muslim, since Muslims would disagree that Jesus was Jospeh's biological son, but rather was born of a virgin, by the will of God.

In the two genealogies, God is NEVER EVER mentioned as the father of Jesus......

There are about 245 verses that do. Many Jesus' own declarations.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0
The Son of God
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0

..... who according to you begot him.

It's not according to me. It's according to the Word of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0

Therefore, Jesus is NOT God.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 03:55:54 PM »
C - FROM LOGICAL REASONING

If you had any sense of "reasoning" - that is if your mind had not been broken by Mohammed and the spirit of antichrist - you would be able to see that it is not "logical" to reject ALL of the prophets and witnesses of God to mankind as revealed through His 1600 year record, that His people have followed through 2 covenants for 3500 years, to follow the STAND-ALONE 7th century religion of A SINGLE, "prophet" with no fulfilled prophecy, that not a single person ever heard the voice of "Allah" or Gabriel give a single revelation to, that never performed a single miracle, whose own books reveal him to be one of the blackest hearted persons in the history of mankind.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

1 If Jesus is God, why did he wait for 30 years to start preaching when the world is awash with sin?

You mean why did He wait 1500 years?
You write as though you are under the impression that there was no solution to sin before Jesus.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0

Perhaps through Mohammedan Islam you mean why didn't Jesus start His ministry in the cradle, since Mohammed plagiarized an Arabic apocryphal fable (though he screwed it up) into the Quran, that suggested that Jesus spoke as an infant.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=893.0

Why not ask why He would allow sin to exist in the first place?
If you repent maybe some day you can ask Him the questions that scripture is somewhat silent on. However I recommend that you read the Gospel first as your comments demonstrate an abject ignorance of it. http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

2 - If Jesus is God, why did he say that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel.....

Because He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. But His own rejected Him.
John 1 11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.   12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:    13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=278.0

...... (Matt15:24) and not to the whole world, too?

He did, after so many of His own rejected Him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 04:13:28 PM »
3 - If Jesus is God, why did he regard non-Jews or Gentiles as dogs and swine? (Matt15:26).

There is no reference to swine in Matt 15 26
There is a reference to dogs however, explained here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=450.msg1823#msg1823

Perhaps you meant this reference to swine, in the form of advice for Christians, witnessing to willful unregenerates, who insist on disobedience to God and obedience to Satan like many Mohammedans I deal with, rather than honestly seeking out the truth.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Are not other humans his creation also which he came to cleanse from the original sin?

Which, of course, He accomplished through His shed blood.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 05:14:22 PM »
This section expands the URL links provided in the upper half of the original post.

Come on my friend. Let's move out of the dark alley of personal messaging to the light of the forum where we can quote each other, and hold each other accountable, over time. friendofutube2009's words designated within [[[[[  ]]]]]

I wrote
___________________

Let me try a quicker version of my first reply.

[[[[[Dear PeteWaldo,

I came to know that you are one of the staunchest apologetics of Christianity against Islam. In the spirit of dialogues to understand each others views, I would like to invite you to a series of discussion about our respective beliefs. After the discussion, you are of course entitled to your belief however I refute it and in the same token I am also entitled to mine however you refute it. The important thing for me is I understand your belief and, on the other hand, you understand mine.

But before I mention the topics that are worthy of discussing, I want to let you know immediately that I am not for mud-slinging or character assassination of each religions prophets because this will lead to nowhere except ill will and hatred against each other. We will leave this style of discussion to others in the Internet of which Youtube is replete with.]]]]

Typical obfuscation of the truth about Mohammed as bequeathed by your own books.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0
This URL link to a forum thread deals in part with Mohammed's thievery.

This one reviews Mohammed's thievery in part.

How can a reasonable person imagine that God would nullify the the record of Jesus, as revealed through all of the prophets and witnesses, five centuries later through a common thief that cut himself in for 1/5 of all the property stolen from others - just like a Mafia Don - through common pillage as well as imperialistic conquest.

8 - AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

Sura 8:41 And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwmbRJd_sD8

Do you suppose Allah ever showed up for his share?

Sura 8:69 But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Bear in mind that "lawful booty" was not gained in "war", but through imperialistic conquest and slaughter of peaceful peoples, and takeover of foreign lands, pillaging folks property as you go. Indeed the First Islamic Jihad was so heavily laden with property stolen from others when they arrived in Tours France that it impeded their escape from the hand of Charles "Martel".

That booty including girls and married women of the vanquished.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=456.0

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

How does Mohammed measure up to those verses?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=879.0

earlier video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwmbRJd_sD8

From a great YouTube channel that explores Mohammed through the hadith:
http://www.youtube.com/user/podremvc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwYL3cxHQ3o


Let's explore the rest of sura 8.41 to remove any confusion.

8.41 And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

Of course Mohammed's "Allah" never showed up to collect his portion of Mohammed's 1/5 share of the property stolen from others, so Allah's share was spent on swords so Mohammed could continue to terrorize and torment the Jews, the Quraysh, and any other non-muslims that rejected Mohammed's stand-alone, 7th century, religious invention. And presumably Mohammed's wives since he had no legitimate means of support.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=856.0

Muslims are quick to point out that part of the stolen property was to be offered to "relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer" but that is the way that criminal bosses, have traditionally bought the favor of that portion of their community, that is immoral enough to accept ill gotten gains derived from property that was stolen from others.

Take mob boss "teflon" Don Gotti, for example. He used to throw money around the neighborhood, and the folks in the burrows that were immoral or reprobate enough to accept it, really liked the guy. This, of course, in spite of the fact that they knew full well that he was a murdering thief. Just like those that accepted the ill gotten gains that were offered by Mohammed, who was also a murdering thief.

Ishaq:465 "When their wrists were bound with cords, the Apostle was a sea of generosity to us."

Old covenant or new, stealing from others is of Satan, and definitely not of God.

Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

Is there anything ambiguous about that commandment?

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 05:16:35 PM »

[[[[[I have seen your quotations of Bukhari related to sex, murder, etc which are explained and refuted well by our ulemas and other Islamic scholars. For you they are worthy of discussion but for me they are not for whatever you throw at us on sex, murder, pillage, there is an equivalent match in your religion. If you throw to me that Muslim are terrorists and are nowadays killing people, I have the answers to that too. That is the reason why I do not want to discuss these issues and I do not want a tete-a-tete mud-slinging style of discussion.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=336.0


This one deals in Mohammed's treatment of female prisoners.

Here "Allah" appoints women to be taken as spoils of war

Sura 33:50-51 "O prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee ... this only for thee, and not for believers [at large]; we know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hand possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

A god that sanctions fornication with sex-slaves:

Sura 23.1 The believers must (eventually) win through,- 2 Those ....
23.5 Who abstain from sex, 6 Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

Mohammed's "Allah" even sanctioning the rape of married (adultery) non-muslim women taken as spoils of war:

Sura 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:....

And al-Jalalayn tafsir (4:24) states: “And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you (kitba is in the accusative because it is the verbal noun)…

(Sahih Muslim) Book 8:3431: "It is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified (of menses or delivery) in case she has a husband, her marriage is abrogated after she becomes captive. BOOK 8. KITAB AL-NIKAH
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/muslim/content08.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018219.php

Yusuf Ali
Sura 24:33:...But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

But WHEN they don’t want to preserve their chastity then pimp ‘em out and make some gain!
And even if you force them into prostitution Allah will forgive anyway!
Pretty convenient god for a raping, murdering, pillaging, plundering, imperialistic army!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1onTtrg1gE8

What kind of 7th century god would offer instruction regarding pimping out your sex slaves, captured and raped, as spoils of war?

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 05:19:25 PM »
[[[[[Moreover, whatever character assassination you throw at our Prophet, we can just say for the sake of argument that unlike your belief of Jesus as God, he is just a human being and a prophet. And that does not diminish nor taint the fact that what he received from God is untainted by his human actions.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=148.0
This one demonstrates how stunningly opposite Mohammed's religion is from Christianity.

This one shows how Islam is the stunning direct opposite of Christianity. The only anti-another-religion, religion, on earth. Indeed Islam is so perfectly the opposite it should cause a Jew, or even a devout atheist, to consider the odds of this being an accident. For example:


1. Christians hold the doctrine of Christ:

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Muslims are taught that if they confess that Jesus is the Son of God they will have committed the most egregious and ONLY unpardonable sin in Islam (shirk).
Jesus is God manifest (revealed) in the flesh, but Mohammed mistakenly believed that Christians consider Jesus to be a "partner".

4:48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


2. The whole subject and point of the New Testament is the new covenant we are given in Jesus Christ through His crucifixion, death and resurrection. The sacrifice of the Lamb without spot to save all who believe in Him from our sins through His shed blood.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

This event was witnessed by many:

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

While even many secular historians confirm that Jesus was crucified, Mohammed came along five centuries later and denied Jesus' crucifixion and death on the Cross:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

This is the single most deadly verse in the Quran. Also demonstrating that Mohammed's adherents are taught what not to believe, but not what to believe, when it comes to who did die on the cross. In other words, Muslims suffer exactly the doubts and conjecture that Mohammed suggested Christians and Jews suffer, of which neither group has any doubt whatsoever.


3. There are at least 10 verses that tell us that Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

beget
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't beget Jesus, then who caused Jesus to be made manifest to us? Who was responsible for putting Jesus in Mary?
In God's own words:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Amazingly, Muslims even believe that Jesus was the only person in human history to be born of a virgin by the will of God. They even believe He led a sinless life, yet they deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that God is His Father.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!


4. Christians are instructed to:

1Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

This describes a relationship and constant communication with God through the Holy Spirit.

The Hadith tells us that earlier Muslims were instructed to pray 50 times a day. Mohammed later reduced this to a more manageable 5 times per day after his supposed flight on a horse.

From "Infidel" Ali explains part of salat, "You say Praise be to Allah thirty-three times; God forgive me thirty-three times; Allah is great thirty-three times; and then, if you choose, you may also say Gratitude to Allah."
That's a total of 495 repetitions of just those first three prayers - every day - because Muslims are commanded to perform salat fives times a day.

Islam requires so much repetitive prayer one would have to wonder how those folks would find time for a relationship with their Creator.
God's Word on the subject:

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.  

Add to that the opposite when it comes to imams head coverings:

1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.


Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Always the opposite, Muslims pray their repetitive mantras in front of each other in mosques 5 times a day. In Saudi Arabia if you miss showing up for these prayers (salat) they may send the religious police to your house to find out why.

5. Mohammed was the OPPOSITE of Jesus.
Perhaps the most violent thing Jesus did was to overturn the tables of the moneychangers.

From the time Mohammed plundered his first caravan, Islam was financed with property stolen from others. There is a whole sura regarding "Spoils of war, booty" detailing Mohammed's/Allah's 1/5 share. Along with pillage and plunder, even poets were killed for speech at Mohammed's behest. Fatwas are put out on folks that speak against Islam today, because Islam cannot stand the light of the truth of God's Word. That's why bibles and Christian materials are banned in Muslim countries. Muslims are encouraged to sexually violate and enslave women that are taken as spoils of war. Mohammed was allowed by Allah all the wives he wanted, but only for him. Mohammed was allowed by Allah to marry his step-son's wife. Mohammed inspired bloody imperialistic conquest through the Islamic first Jihad conquering nearly the whole known world. The Islamic Second Jihad has engaged in over 12,000 deadly terror attacks just since 9-11.

Jesus healed the lame so they could walk.
Mohammed brought lameness to the walking. "...they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off." video
Jesus brought sight to the blind.
Mohammed brought blindness to the seeing. "...he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes..."
Jesus brought the dead back to life.
Mohammed killed the living.

6. The goal of Islam is conquest of all of the kingdoms of the world, as evidenced by the Islamic First Jihad. And today "Islam will someday rule all the mountain tops of the world" - Ahmadinejad

Christians understand the the kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal property ever since Adam's fall. He even offered them to Jesus. Jesus declined, but never contested Satan's ownership. Being born again is to be specifically called out of the kingdoms of this world, and into the Kingdom of God. The direct opposite of Islam's goal.

7. Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee [Abram] a great nation [Israel], and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.[/b]' " (video) Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176 - Sunna: Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985) USC had to remove this "inspired" Islamic hadith as hate speech, but does not repudiate it).


8. Christian men are to:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

There can be no greater love than Christ had for us.
Islam?

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will...

Husbands are allowed four wives plus concubines. Women are stoned for adultery. Men are allowed to marry and have sex with girls as young as 9 years old. Men are permitted one day marriages. Women inherit half of what their brothers do. The testimony of a woman is only worth half that of a man. Women are often effectively the property of their parents who decide whom they will marry. If a woman follows her heart she can be the victim of an "honor killing". If parents die then it is their brothers who control these decisions. There are fewer women in Mohammed's heaven then men because they are "deficient in intelligence".

(Sura al-Baqara 2:282). Muhammad accounted for this rule by the deficiency of woman's intelligence: Once the Messenger of God went out to a prayer place to offer the prayer of Greater Bairam or Lesser Bairam. He passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell- fire were you [women]." They asked, "Why is it so, Messenger of God?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "What is deficient in our intelligence and religion, Messenger of God?" He answered, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your intelligence.

Women are there for beating:

Sura 4:34 - Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women

9. Even Mohammed's heaven is the opposite.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mohammed's Aljana (From Islam Reviewed, a book filled with opposites from a Nigerian former Muslim perspective.).

"Rivers of wine of many varieties (Sura 47:15; 76:6)
- There is the promise of pure sealed wine (Sura 83:25)
- Zanjabil enhanced wine (Sura 76:17)
- Tasnim brand of wine (Sura 83:27)
- Wine mixed with kafur (Sura 76:5)

Then:
- Gushing water (Sura 3:15, 198, 4:57, 15:48).
- Clustered plantains (Sura 56:29)
- Fruits (Sura 56:20, 69:21-24).
- Shades with bunches of fruits (Sura 76:14).
- Enclosed gardens and grape vines (Sura 78:32).
- Fowl meat is one more carrot that Allah dangles before the noses of the Muslim faithful. (Sura 56:2)."
In essence the things that Mohammed's desert habitat lacked. The list obviously reads more like California than heaven.
http://www.petewaldo.com/#quran
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=264.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEfKpgiYgHY

In conclusion we can see that Christians and Muslims cannot possibly be worshiping the same God since the two religions are DIRECT OPPOSITES. Allah even curses Christians and Jews. Islam is the only anti-another-religion, religion, on earth. Islam is antichrist.

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Christians follow the 1600 year record of God to mankind revealed through all of the prophets and legions of witnesses in His Holy Word. Muslims follow the 23 year, 6th century record of Mohammed that is the perfect DIRECT OPPOSITE, of the Word of God.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.


Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 05:21:27 PM »

[[[[[What I am interested to discuss, however, are issues which are purely dogmatic and basically form the tenets of our two religions. Based on this, I would propose the following subject as worthy of discussion according to importance:

1 Is Jesus God?

Note: I am very interested on this because this is THE main contention between Islam and Christianity. Christians say Jesus is God, Muslims say NO, he is only a prophet of God.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0

This one links to a forum section on the divinity of Jesus Christ. Here is an example thread


Jesus coming as God in Old Testament prophecy from Isaiah in roughly 745-695 BC. Roughly 700 years before Christ was revealed to us.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0410 'el {ale}
shortened from 0352; TWOT - 93a; n m
AV - God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1,
Immanuel + 06005 2, might 1, strong 1; 245
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

We can see from Strong's word count that Immanuel is translated as upper-case "God" 213 times in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

was manifest
New Testament Greek Definition:
5319 phaneroo {fan-er-o'-o}
from 5318; TDNT - 9:3,1244; v
AV - make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2,
show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1; 49
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown,
to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realized
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is
For Synonyms see entry 5812


John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:

God's name is "I AM" so we can see Jesus declaration of divinity and it so enraging the Pharisees that they wanted to stone Him. Eventually crucified Him for it.

Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Particularly since He declares His coexistence with God from before Abraham.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Here's another declaration of divinity:

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Again the declaration of divinity and again those Pharisees before Him sought to stone Him. Jesus is the Son of God. That's why they crucified Him:

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus is our path to, or the way we can find, God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In the larger context:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And again:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

In case you missed the first verse, again:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Here is another declaration of divinity:

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

And another:

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]. 27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

That bracketed translator word "[he]" I don't believe is a help at all, in this passage. This passage is explored in more detail with the Greek/English Textus Receptus interlinear here:
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0

Additional scriptural evidence of Jesus' coexistence with God the Father:

2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=54.0

1 Peter 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 05:22:58 PM »
[[[[[What I am interested to discuss, however, are issues which are purely dogmatic and basically form the tenets of our two religions. Based on this, I would propose the following subject as worthy of discussion according to importance:

1 Is Jesus God?

Note: I am very interested on this because this is THE main contention between Islam and Christianity. Christians say Jesus is God, Muslims say NO, he is only a prophet of God.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=40.0
Here's another from that section

Later added YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtuddWkfGLk

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

No question about the identity of the person in the above verse:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In Old Testament prophecy many hundreds of years before Jesus was manifest, or revealed, to us:

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 05:26:31 PM »
[[[[[2 Is Trinity Biblical and Preached By Jesus?

Note: This is THE second MAIN contention between Christians and Muslims. Christians say it is scriptural and is preached by Jesus and Muslims say it is the invention of Paul and the Church based on pagan practices of the time. In order to accommodate them to the new emerging religion, Paul is prepared to modify the teaching of Jesus to their liking.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=174.0

Of course it was preached by Jesus.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Even Muslims believe God has a Spirit.

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=316.0

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Why do Muslims call Jesus Ruhullah? What does it mean in Islam? Click here.

According to those Muslim sites it means "a spirit from allah" or "a spirit of allah".

So does God HAVE a Spirit? A Spirit OF God?

Sura 32.9: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Sura 58.22 Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.

Sura 16:102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

So we can see that, according to their own measure, Muslims are polytheistic hypocrites.

God + His Spirit = 2 gods when measuring Christians.

1+1=2

But when measuring allah + his spirit:

1+1=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O31ud9yQjh4

Now consider the term "Ruhullah". This is a name for Jesus that means "a spirit of Allah".

So is Jesus "a spirit of allah"? Muslims believe He was born of the virgin Mary by the will of God. They also believe He was a flesh and bone man, even though they recognize He was uniquely put on earth - out of all mankind - by allah.

Christians believe that Jesus is a part of God "manifest", or revealed, to us. That God sent a part of Himself to be the perfect example to all mankind. A manifestation of God, just like God's Spirit. If God hadn't revealed Himself to us, we couldn't know He exists.

Muslims even believe Jesus was sinless. Since even a thought can constitute a sin, how could a flesh and bone man, ever, be sinless?

John 1:29  29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.    30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.    31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.    32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.    34  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Why not read a little from John's Gospel? Same version (KJV) Deedat quoted from:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:...

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Mat 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is SHED FOR MANY for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION.


Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 05:31:40 PM »
[[[[[3 Which is Gods Word, the Bible or the Quran?]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=96.0

Hmmm. Which is God's Word. The 1600 year record of God to mankind through ALL of the prophets that His people have followed through 2 covenants for 3500 years, or the 23 year 7th century record of the SOLE "prophet" Mohammed, who never had a fulfilled prophecy, who not a single person ever heard "Allah" or Gabriel speak to, who never performed a single miracle, and who WAS and taught the EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus Christ and all the New Testament prophets and witnesses. Gee...... that's a real tough one isn't it?

Let's look at abrogation in the Quran.

The bible spans a period from Moses to Jesus over 16 centuries. Over that period mankind changed from desert dwelling nomads, to advanced nations that could follow religious laws from the Sanhedrin and the civil law of kings and emperors.
The Qur’an’s 71 abrogated suras out of only 114 total, occurring within the brief period of 23 years, demonstrates not divine revelation, but the changing whims of it's author.

Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh is the Arabic language book that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by. Good videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kox5XNuyb8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z2R-KVLCeg&NR=1

In Mohammed's own words:

(Yusuf Ali) Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

Hmmm.....not abrogated.....just........substituted.......for something better!
Does anyone really believe God to be that confused?

Like the sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

as a better substitute for the verse waaaay back in sura 2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Or:
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Even Mohammed seems to have known how he would be viewed by those not indoctrinated into Islam:

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Perhaps part of the reason there are 73 Islamic sects by some counts: http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?threadID=4989&tstart=0

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml

"In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina.

When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses. The chronological timing in which a verse was written determines its authority to establish policies within Islam. Non-Muslims cannot afford to be ignorant about the full implications of the Abrogator and the Abrogated Doctrine (al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh). When Islamic spokesmen say that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Quran does not support such things as human rights infractions, gender bias and terrorism, they are lying. This means that the Western politicians and liberal journalists, who continually spout that Islam is a noble religion of peace, are in reality propagating a deception that they have been deceived into parroting."

Much more:
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml

Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye5pPXrBl7g

A video detailing some specific verses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtUhb_9rp9A

Islam is it's own worst enemy. That's the problem with the opposite of truth. The tangled web of deception.
The Quran, of course, could never be "repaired". It is the repetitive record of the ramblings of a 7th century illiterate false prophet that is the opposite of what the God of the bible prescribes. Islam is antichrist. It is the only anti-another-religion religion.

Naskh - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvbkzewoyao

In depth:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/abrogatedverses.html

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 05:32:43 PM »

[[[[[3 Which is Gods Word, the Bible or the Quran?]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=96.0

Now let's look at the inspiration of the Quran.
Inspiration or plagiarism? http://www.youtube.com/user/allahaleg

To answer to the doubters of his inspiration, because of the conspicuous absence of witnesses or other proof of inspiration, Mohammed provided yet another sura for damage control:

Sura 9.127 Whenever there cometh down a Sura, they look at each other, (saying), "Doth anyone see you?" Then they turn aside: Allah hath turned their hearts (from the light); for they are a people that understand not.

Inspiration of the Quran

Amazingly, even some of today's Muslims look upon Mohammed's illiteracy as some sort of miracle. To non-Muslims illiteracy is usually a reflection of someone's mental incapacity or lack of education. Certainly a far cry from the very literate prophets and apostles that wrote the Gospel over 6 centuries earlier.
How those men died:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4rtYAO3UxA
In stark contrast to those men:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1MiLqH0jc
The Word of God
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

But the fact that Mohammed was illiterate certainly didn't mean he was blind and deaf. He traveled a lot in his first wife's business and also with his uncle as a child, so there was no lack of exposure. Later on he was surrounded by many that knew about Judaism and Christianity including wives and concubines.

"From a number of Islamic books we gather that Mohammed was surrounded by many Christians - even if nominal. One of them was Waraqa ibn Naufal, the cousin of Khadija, Mohammed's wife. One of his wives, Umm Habbibah, was formerly the wife of a Christian, Ubaidu'llah ibn Jahsh. Another wife of Mohammed, Miriam, and her sister, Sirin, were Christian slaves given to Muhammad. Biographer Ibn Ishaq records that Abdu'llah ibn Salam (one of the bestt reciters of the Qur'an) was a seasoned Jewish Rabbi before he became a Muslim and personal friend of Muhammad." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

But perhaps the most valuable source of Mohammed's rehashed Jewish and Arabic fables and pseudo-Christian suras was a friend of his named Jabr. An ex"Christian" that converted to Islam. Indeed so often did Mohammed have a "revelation" after meeting with his friend Jabr that the local nickname in jest for Jabr became "holy spirit". It would seem that so embarrassed was Mohammed, by the ribbing he was taking, that damage control required yet another sura.

"The Jabr Connection

Again quoting Moshay:

Sura 16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

The "man that teaches him" is a young "Christian" friend of Muhammad called Jabr, whom Muhammad always visited at Marwah Quraters, not too far from his house. The allegation was that when Muhammad visited Jabr and heard the stories of the Bible, some were put on record. People believed that Muhammad usually presented these parchments and claimed he had received them hot from heaven through the angel Gabriel.

Muhammad refuted this strong allegation through another "revelation" from "Gabriel." The defense was that since Jabr was of "a foreign tongue" (he was not an Arab by birth), he could not have taught Muhammad anything. But it does not matter if Jabr was a non-Arab. Since he had stayed long in Arabia, he could have known Arabic very well and related his stories to Muhammad in good Arabic. How could Jabr be a close friend of Muhammad (if he did not understand Arabic) since Muhammad did not understand any other language? We must realize too that Muhammad's main Secretary was a Jew. According to Muslim writer Muhammad Haykall, Muhammad...

'...had chosen him (the Secretary) for his capacity to write letters in Hebrew and Syriac as well as Arabic. After the evacuation of Jews from Madinah, the Prophet no longer trusted a non-muslim to write his letters.'

That means, too, that the Jewish background of Jabr could not be a plausible reason why he couldn't have helped Muhammad in his collection of what is now called the Qur'an. If Muhammad's own Secretary was of "a foreign tougue" and yet well versed in Arabic, Syriac and his own Hebrew language, then it is not inconceivable to get Hebrew scriptures and literature interpreted and translated into Arabic by the Secretary. Since the Secretary was such a brilliant fellow and was versatile in these three languages, therefore, the alleged brilliance of the language of the Qur'an is not a necessary and sufficient proof of heavenly authorship. Rather, it can be a reflection of the brilliance of Jabr, since Muhammad is believed to have been illiterate." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

Regarding Mohammed's claim of "pure Arabic" there are over 100 non-Arabic words in Persian, Syriac, Hebrew, old Egyptian, Assyrian and Greek. So even Mohammed's claimed "proof" in the above sura is untrue. Even the word for "Gospel", Injil, is a Syriac word.
__________________

From a website:
"Ibn Ishaq also provides some detail. (in page180)

"According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr (2), a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say "The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami." Then God revealed in reference to their words "We well know that they say, "Only a mortal teaches him"."

Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." "

Search Sura 16 103 "jabr"

"On Plagiarism

The influences noted above are not just in hearing stories and having them jotted down as revelations. There are hints of outright plagioarism identified by scholars. But, interestingly, we have a serious challenge concerning the sacredness and originality of the Qur'an:

'And if you are in doubt as to which We (allah) have revealed to Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.'

Most Arabs were illiterate at that time. Moreover, many of the original works from which Arabs could have discovered the sources of the Qur'an material were in foreign languages. Informed scholars now laugh at such a challenge since clear evidence now exists to establish outright plagiarism in the Qura'an. We will now cite a few of these.

It has been established that verses 1, 29, 31 and 46 of Sura 54 (Surat al-Qamar) were lifted from a poem of a pre-Islamic Arabic poet, Imraul Qais. Even at the time of Muhammad, some sneered at the challenge to 'produce a chapter like it.' For example the poe Imraul Qais' daughter was still alive when Muhammad started his religion. One day this lady was listening to Muhammad reciting the 'revelations' he had just received hot from heaven from his Angel Jubril. She recognized the verses from her father's poems, and stoood aghast and amused, wondering how these could be a revelation written by Alland and preserved in the 'Preserved Tablet' in heaven from before the creation of the world!

Another time, this lady met Fatima, Muhammad's daughter, reciting the first verse of Surat Qamar. Qais' daughter said:

'Oh that is what your father has taken from my father's poems ('Mollaqat') and calls it something that has come down fto him from heaven!'

If the original works of a secular Arab poet could be seen in the Qur'an, then it is scarcely of any use to maintain the claim that the Qur'an is so wonderful that the most learned Arab or even a spirit could not produce it's kind." (Anatomy of the Quran by G.J.O. Moshay)

Sura 19:28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" 29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" 30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

Jesus speaking as an infant was lifted from an Egyptian apocryphal fable written in Egypt titled "First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ":
"...Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said: 'Mary, I am Jesus the son of God. That word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel..."

Portions of the preceding from "Anatomy of the Quran" by G.J.O. Moshay
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=410.0

Any Muslim that dares to read Moshay's book, will leave Islam.

Mohammed discouraged questions:

Surah 5:101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.

So Muslims are instructed to avoid asking questions. Illustrating Islam's 1400 year fear of truth. The same reason that Mohammed had poets killed and prevented Muslims from making friends of non-Muslims. The same reason bibles are banned in Islamic countries.
The one true God is very much different than that:

1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

The reason Mohammed discouraged questions is made clear in the very next verse:

102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

But those that loose their faith in Mohammed can gain faith in the one true God - the God of love - that His people have followed for 3500 years, through two covenants, detailed in His 1600 year record:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

That's why apostates are killed. So they can't bring truth to others. Punishment for leaving, like all other dangerous cults.

Surah 4:89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

There was no shortage of doubters regarding Mohammed's "revelations" being divinely inspired. Besides the Christians and Jews, other Arabs had trouble, likely in part because even Mohammed admitted to reversing himself so often.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=116.0

A whopping 71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation:

Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Mohammed even knew how all his change-ups would be perceived:

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

That he couldn't keep his story straight indicates not divine inspiration but the changing whims of the self-serving author of the Quran. Like the special sura that allowed Mohammed to take his step-son's wife, or the one that allowed him all the wives he wanted, but only for him. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#prophet

According to Aisha, while they were making preparations to bury Mohammed, goats ate part of the Quran.
Does anyone really think that is the way God would preserve His Word?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7GPNAUWacI

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 05:40:55 PM »
[[[[[Note: This is THE third main contention between Christians and Muslims. Christians say that their Bible is the literal word of God or inspired by God to the Bible writers and Muslims disagree that it is corrupted and such God revealed an uncorrupted Book, the Quran which of course you believed to be not the word of God and is corrupted.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=372.0

But of course in so doing you are calling your own a prophet a fool for having recited the following, IN THE 7TH CENTURY, after God's Word had been copied tens of thousands of times in every popular language that was known to man.
Mohammed recited:

Surah 4:157  That THEY SAID (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST JESUS the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-

That SINGLE VERSE REJECTS ALL the prophets and apostles, and the WHOLE SUBJECT of the New Testament, which is the new covenant, that was prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled through Jesus Christ. Mohammed even admits to the event, but spins it as though the hundreds, or more likely thousands, of eye witnesses somehow didn't actually see what they saw.
That Mary didn't recognize her own Son. Who found such a convincing body double?

Indeed Christians and Jews share our confidence in the textual integrity of the Old Testament, that began to be recorded 2 thousand years before Mohammed was ever born. Consider the Hebrew scholar's scribal methodology: http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=97.0

And now the conundrum. While Mohammed denies the Jesus Crucifixion he also requests:

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

And then fiercely suggests:

Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Therein lies the conundrum. If the bible had been corrupted BEFORE Mohammed, and one is supposed to buy Mohammed's opposite version of the crucifixion, how could Mohammed's "Allah" then make such foolish statements in the same 7th CENTURY?

Now either the 23 year, 7th century record, of THE SINGLE PROPHET Mohammed's recitations, is in absolute error, or the 1600 year record of God to mankind through ALL the prophets and apostles in is in absolute error.
Might be productive to also bear in mind that Mohammed's record was collected and stored in the minds of men.
Ever play the parlor game where you sit in a circle and someone whispers a story in the next guy's ear and he passes it on? What happens in less than an hour's time?

ALL CHRISTIANS and ALL BIBLE VERSIONS for the last 200 years hold that Jesus died on the cross. That is the WHOLE SUBJECT of Christianity. Crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Lamb without spot whom was sent to bring salvation to all mankind through His shed blood.
There is also lots of secular historians of the time, that at least recorded Jesus death, on the cross.

The only way that Muslims can suggest that Mohammed's book can trump ALL the prophets and apostles is to suggest that ALL CHRISTIANS AND BIBLES, and the secular historical record, were somehow changed AFTER THE 7TH CENTURY. An utterly ridiculous notion.

If you hold this notion, at what point in history would you venture that this switch occurred? When was the bible changed and when did Christians suddenly switch from believing Jesus didn't die on the Cross to not believing?

If you are a Mohammedan this should make it apparent that ..... you're screwed if you don't repent.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2010, 05:43:23 PM »
[[[[[4 Muhammed (pbuh) In The Bible

Note: This is interesting because Christians say Muhammed (pbuh) is phony and Muslims say he just continue the original and pristine teaching of Jesus. In discussing this, I want us to discuss only the real issues and NOT character assassination. If we can prove that Muhammed (pbuh) is mentioned in your Bible, then the contention between us will be lesser. I know that you will fight tooth and nail to prove your case and I will also to prove my case.]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=33.0

This link goes to a section devoted to this Mohammedan foolishness that goes well into 2 forum pages. There are so many nonsensical examples I don't know which to pick. Why don't you offer me one as an example.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 05:47:49 PM »
[[[[[5 Paul or Muhammed (pbuh): Who is the Anti-Christ?]]]]]

http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=252.0

The link in this one goes to a thread on antichrist.
Without question, and in no uncertain terms, Mohammed and his followers are antichrists - as the most important fundamental of Mohammed's religion.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

What have you also proven yourself by blaspheming the Word of God?

1Jo 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

And to what end?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

[[[[[Note: Christians claim that Muhammed (pbuh) is the anti-Christ while Muslims say it is Paul and not Muhammed (pbuh) who just continues the pristine monotheism teaching of Jesus (pbuh).

But as you can see from the verses above the Christian claim is supported by the Word of God.
Your false claims are nothing more than your own empty words. This was well prophesied.

2Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, FALSE ACCUSERS, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

The above are I think more than enough to explore your belief and mine. You can of course suggest your own but it should not involve topics which require me or you to throw mud against each other. And as I am always suggesting, we will discuss the above in the spirit of professionalism and in a gentlemans way without name-calling and character assassination.

Having said that, let me start the ball rolling by tackling THE main disagreement between us. In here, I will not use my Quran or any other Islamic belief to prove my point but rather use your own to advance my case since.]]]]]

There is a lot on your table now. Please start at the top and go point by point.

Peter

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Re: Chat with friendofutube2009 Part 1
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2010, 08:07:16 AM »
bump