Well of Zamzam, Hagar & "Tradition" (split from Hagar, Mecca, and the Umrah)

[Peter]

This subject of the well of Zamzam, was split off of the "Hagar, Mecca, and the Umrah - Al-Safa and Al-Marwah" thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1952.msg8518#msg8518

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Indeed. One is fighting in the cause of regaining one's freedom.
An example of a terrorist is the one that engages in imperialistic conquest, to take away the freedom of others, and subjugate and enslave the formerly free people to the will of a satanic cult. Indeed Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in the history of mankind.
But that's a topic we are covering in other threads - DO NOT address it on this thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=53.0

THIS THREAD IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON YOUR PART WHEN YOU SAY THAT HAGAR WAS NOT TAKEN BY ABRAHAM TO MAKKAH. PURE unadulterated conjecture and it has nothing to do with the burial place of Abraham.

My dear fellow, "PURE unadulterated conjecture" is to suggest that Abraham, Hagar, or Ishmael ever had a thing to do with where Mecca was eventually settled around the 4th century AD, since the whole preposterous notion springs purely from the 7th and 8th century created so-called "tradition" of Mohammed's followers. That's waaaaay beyond speculation, and even beyond the wildest conjecture, and cannot possibly be characterized as other than pure unadulterated fiction. The actual historical record contained in scripture - confirmed by archaeological evidence - describes where Abraham journeyed. Indeed never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built - whichever presumed location for Mt. Sinai one measures from.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm



How would a bunch of ignorant 7th century southeast Arabian desert dwellers, have had any idea what went on 2900 years before? Perhaps they went to the library in Mecca to read about it?

Just look at what a number they did on Mohammed's genealogy!
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1317.0

Indeed how could they have known the Kaaba, in any way other than it had been home to some 360 idols that had been venerated by Mohammed's own pagan Quraish tribe of, moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worshipers?
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1906.0
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

I included this reply to the first part of Mujaheed's post for background. Please do not comment on it here as it is copied from the related thread. Please comment there instead, to avoid redundant posting.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1952.msg8534#msg8534

[Peter]

QURAN SAYS ......

And there's the problem. You believe this unhistorical hogwash purely because Mohammed and his boys were willing to create and declare it in the 7th and 8th centuries AD.

.... ZAM ZAM (WATER GIVEN TI HAGAR IS STILL FLOWING IN MAKKAH) .....

Well then that must confirm everything!
My poor indoctrinated, deluded friend, artesian wells "flow".

ARTESIAN WELLS



According to Islamic history the well of Zamzam was dug by Mohammed's grandfather Abdel Mutaleb. (Ibn Hisham, I, pages 117 and 118)
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

From Wikipedia on Zamzam "Originally water from the well was drawn via ropes and buckets..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well#Technical_information
Zamzam doesn't "flow" my friend. The water just sits there, down in the ground, like any other common well that has to be pumped.
And ancient wells that still have water in them are all over the Holy Land, and in Arabia too, from long before the time that Mohammed's grandfather dug the well of Zamzam.
And of course there are millions of wells, all over the world today, that maintain their levels.
And rechargeable aquifers from which millions of gallons are pumped daily. http://coastgis.marsci.uga.edu/summit/aquifers.htm

....... THE ZAM ZAM is the purest water on earth......

    * Sodium 133 mg/L
    * Calcium 96 mg/L
    * Magnesium 38.88 mg/L
    * Potassium 43.3 mg/L
    * Bicarbonate 195.4 mg/L
    * Chloride 163.3 mg/L
    * Fluoride 0.72 mg/L
    * Nitrate 124.8 mg/L
    * Sulfate 124.0 mg/L
    * pH 8
    * Total dissolve alkalinity 835 mg/L

....... tested, not a single bacteria found in the well for the last One thousand  four hundred years at least.

So who are we to suppose, was testing the well for bacteria, 1400 years ago?

Miracle?

Only a miracle to someone who never bothers to investigate what he has been indoctrinated to believe.

"Zamzam water has no colour or smell, but it has a distinct taste, and its pH is 7.9–8.0, indicating that it is alkaline to some extent and is similar to seawater."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well#Technical_information

"The water level is 3.23 m (10.6 ft) below the surface."
So whether you were indoctrinated to believe the 7th century fable of Ishmael stamping his foot on the ground, or the 7th century fable of Gabriel brushing a wing across the ground, how do you suppose Hagar got access to water that was 10 feet deep? With a foxhole shovel? Perhaps another Mohammedan so-called "miracle"? Or has the well perhaps been dropping it's level? Is that the miracle?

You the first scholar I have encountered in my 45 years as a Muslim that has ever presented the topic, and your knowledge is very limited,

My friend, where are YOUR SCHOLARS presenting evidence that Mohammed's religion ever existed before Mohammed?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
That is of course, from other than the 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction, labeled "tradition".

Go back in history and find out who the first people were that gathered true knowledge, who crossed the Mediterranean about 1000 years before any European dared?

Yes  superiority of knowledge still exists with the Muslims, ......

As you've repeatedly demonstrated in this forum.
Nobody could ever accuse Mohammed's followers of linear thinking when it comes to Mohammed's religion. Nor of investigating the record of Mohammed's religion, from before Mohammed.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?board=56.0

..... maybe not technologically but definitely religiously.

No question you've succeeded at pounding Mohammed and his boys 7th century religious invention into yourselves.

[Peter]

Zamzam's polluted with "high nitrate" "harmful bacteria" and "arsenic exceeding World Health Organization guidelines"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQLenY_Wfw

But some Muhammadans in the video refuse to believe Zamzam's polluted, just as they refuse to believe that Mecca never existed before the 4th century AD, nor the well of Zamzam before Muhammad's grandfather dug it to establish Hajj around the most venerated priest and priestess in the Arabian jinn religion.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1133.0

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13267205

Contaminated 'Zam Zam' holy water from Mecca sold in UK
By Guy Lynn BBC News

Holy drinking water contaminated with arsenic is being sold illegally to Muslims by UK shops, the BBC has found.

"Zam Zam" water is taken from a well in Mecca and is considered sacred to Muslims, but samples from the source suggested it held dangerous chemicals.

Tourists can bring back small amounts from Saudi Arabia, but it cannot be exported for commercial use.

An undercover researcher found large quantities of bottles being sold in east and south London, and in Luton.

The president of the Association of Public Analysts said he would "certainly would not recommend" drinking it.
'Poisonous' drink

A BBC investigation discovered "Zam Zam" water was being sold by Muslim bookshops in Wandsworth, south-west London, and Upton Park, east London, as well as in Luton, Bedfordshire.

"The water is poisonous, particularly because of the high levels of arsenic, which is a carcinogen," said Dr Duncan Campbell, president of the Association of Public Analysts.

"The limits set in drinking water are set there for very good reason.

"Once the water gets above that limit, it's not safe."

Secret recordings captured the vendors describing customers who drank it daily.

"They depend on it, they don't drink anything else," said the owner of an Islamic bookshop in Upton Park.

Last year the Food Standards Agency said people "should consider avoiding" the drink in the UK, which it said came from dubious sources.
'Sensitive matter'

The BBC asked a pilgrim to take samples from taps which were linked to the Zam Zam well and to buy bottles on sale in Mecca, to compare the water on sale illegally with the genuine source.

These showed high levels of nitrate and potentially harmful bacteria, and traces of arsenic at three times the permitted maximum level, just like the illegal water which was purchased in the UK.

Dr Yunes Ramadan Teinaz, an environmental health officer who has previously warned about "Zam Zam" water, said it was "a sensitive matter".

"People see this water as a holy water," he added.

"They find it difficult to accept that it is contaminated but the authorities in Saudi Arabia or in the UK must take action," he said.

None of the three shops involved would say why they were selling the water or how they obtained it, but further investigation suggested it had now been removed from their shelves.

The Saudi embassy in London declined to comment on the issue of contamination at the source in Mecca.

[mightymouse]

Naw . . . there's no poison in Zamzam. Drink all you want Achmed. Here . . . have some more. You can't believe what those infidels say.