Islam, Muslim / Christian Forum - Welcome All

Quote from: Peter on January 14, 2011, 09:56:15 AM
I embellished this post a little more for you Sal.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2286.msg9524#msg9524

Thank you

Quote from: Mike S on January 13, 2011, 12:37:37 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 13, 2011, 02:43:21 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:40:20 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 08:10:39 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel .

If you are going to try to say that Ishmael rode on an angel from Mecca to Hebron you are going to have to cite me some sources from witnesses, and not a bunch of hogwash that was written 2,500 years after Ishmael.
Where did you learn that Ishmael rode on an angel?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PMThe one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .

The Old Testament is THE ONLY RECORD we have of Abraham's times. PERIOD. Yet you choose to REJECT THAT RECORD because a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers CREATED PURE FICTION regarding events of 2500 YEARS EARLIER!!!! It's impossible for Tabari, Ishak and the rest of those clowns that followed Mohammed to have known anything about what happened thousands of years before.

Now click on this web search archaeological evidence confirms bible accuracy

The Gospel is the same as it was in the 1st century as it was in mohammed's 7th century when he said

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.

When Mohammed said that the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the know world for centuries. The same Gospel we have today.
So are you saying that Mohammed was stupid for saying that and you are so smart for claiming corruption?

Here's a video by a former atheist that thought about the bible the way you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiddSTtKpA

So instead of an answer, you instead turn to blasphemy against YHWH and His Word.
But blaspheming YHWH will never make Mohammed's ridiculous stand-alone 7th century religion any more true, than it will move Mecca even ONE INCH closer to Jerusalem. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME.

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

As i remember is used the Quote from the bible not form the Haith Nor the Holy Quran . if you could not see it i will bring it to you . Read what is in blue[/color]:

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre

You always speak about eye wittness , and quoting from the bible .

Are you not even aware that Christians, Jews AND MUSLIMS visit the place where Abraham was buried near Hebron? 1200 kilometers away from Mecca?
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm

Hahahaha . I did not says that he is burid in Mecca , what i said he came and built mecca , .........

Yet the ONLY reason you believe that is because a bunch of semi-literate southwest Arabian desert dwellers said Abraham built Mecca, and they said it 2500 years after Abraham was alive.
Do you understand how ridiculous it is for someone to believe something so preposterous and without even a shred of historical or archaeological evidence to back it up?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:47:41 PM........ you sick boy do not change what said.

Are you as illiterate as Mohammed? The question that you keep avoiding is...

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles from Mecca to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

And the only record you believe in from gospols that written yaers after jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was raised to heaven . Saul never saw jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM when he was on earth and yet he claims all this lies of him being a messanger of god.

historical or archaeological ?you do not have any Archaelogcical that proves that there was something called temple of Sololm , only in jews myths and christiany , prove to  me that he build it , prove to me that Ibrahim was there , prove it to me  you ca not prove . Do not bring a story from the bible that says , beucase also i can  bring form the HOLY QURAN THE ONLY WORD OF GOD THAT HAS NOT CHANGED AND WILL NEVER CHNAGE .



But Mohammed said I come from a blood clo ? Indeed Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM  was from blood clot , but i was not saying it to say he was not . But you misunderstood why i post it . if you read your repleys you  will you about banning me like i fear you , so i was telling i fear Non but God , on you and by the way why did you delet my post  huh i will post them agian .

Here you go:

A National Geographic article:

Solomon's Temple Artifacts found by Muslim Workers

Another article at The Underground website:

Archaeology Team Discovers Parts of Solomon's Temple

Another website :

Arcaeological Evidence for Solomon's Temple in a Newly Discovered 9th Century BC Stone Tablet

and another:

Dutch Archaeologist recounts discovery of Solomon's Temple

still another:

The Historicity of Solomon's Temple

As far as which Holy Book changed, There's over 100 abrogated verses in the Qur'an, with the abrogating verse stating exactly the opposite of the abrogated verse.  

On the Bible: There are over 5000 pieces of manuscripts covering the New Testament alone, some of which date back to the 2st Century. Every single one of those manuscripts are the same as today's Bible (in the Greek, of course)

These manuscripts can be found in the great universities and museums throughout the world.
The Dead Sea Scrolls date back  to the prophet Isaiah's time, and contain passages that prophesy the coming Messiah. The text is in agreement with the Bibles we have today.

In the numerous translations and versions, there are minor differences, and even some translational and transcriptural errors, but none of them change any doctrine when compared to the earliest manuscripts we have.

This are not histoicall evidance , most of them are just talk

Quote from: Peter on January 13, 2011, 10:56:57 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 13, 2011, 02:43:21 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:40:20 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 08:10:39 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel .

If you are going to try to say that Ishmael rode on an angel from Mecca to Hebron you are going to have to cite me some sources from witnesses, and not a bunch of hogwash that was written 2,500 years after Ishmael.
Where did you learn that Ishmael rode on an angel?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PMThe one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .

The Old Testament is THE ONLY RECORD we have of Abraham's times. PERIOD. Yet you choose to REJECT THAT RECORD because a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers CREATED PURE FICTION regarding events of 2500 YEARS EARLIER!!!! It's impossible for Tabari, Ishak and the rest of those clowns that followed Mohammed to have known anything about what happened thousands of years before.

Now click on this web search archaeological evidence confirms bible accuracy

The Gospel is the same as it was in the 1st century as it was in mohammed's 7th century when he said

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.

When Mohammed said that the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the know world for centuries. The same Gospel we have today.
So are you saying that Mohammed was stupid for saying that and you are so smart for claiming corruption?

Here's a video by a former atheist that thought about the bible the way you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiddSTtKpA

So instead of an answer, you instead turn to blasphemy against YHWH and His Word.
But blaspheming YHWH will never make Mohammed's ridiculous stand-alone 7th century religion any more true, than it will move Mecca even ONE INCH closer to Jerusalem. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME.

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

As i remember is used the Quote from the bible not form the Haith Nor the Holy Quran . if you could not see it i will bring it to you . Read what is in blue[/color]:

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre

You always speak about eye wittness , and quoting from the bible .

Are you not even aware that Christians, Jews AND MUSLIMS visit the place where Abraham was buried near Hebron? 1200 kilometers away from Mecca?
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm

Hahahaha . I did not says that he is burid in Mecca , what i said he came and built mecca , .........

Yet the ONLY reason you believe that is because a bunch of semi-literate southwest Arabian desert dwellers said Abraham built Mecca, and they said it 2500 years after Abraham was alive.
Do you understand how ridiculous it is for someone to believe something so preposterous and without even a shred of historical or archaeological evidence to back it up?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:47:41 PM........ you sick boy do not change what said.

Are you as illiterate as Mohammed? The question that you keep avoiding is...

How did Ishmael wander 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

And the only record you believe in from gospols that written yaers after jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was raised to heaven . Saul never saw jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM when he was on earth and yet he claims all this lies of him being a messanger of god.

historical or archaeological ?you do not have any Archaelogcical that proves that there was something called temple of Sololm , only in jews myths and christiany , prove to  me that he build it , prove to me that Ibrahim was there , prove it to me  you ca not prove .

We understand you have to reject ALL of the prophets and witnesses of God's Word to follow Mohammed and must reject all of the physical and historical evidence like the temple mount and the scriptures.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

However now you even break with your own false prophet who, through his buffoonery made a claim that he rode a flying donkey-mule to the temple, without even realizing that the temple had been torn down over 500 years before he claimed to have tied his flying donkey-mule up to it!

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets.

Isn't it funny that a magic flying donkey-mule would need to be tethered in the first place?
But you still didn't answer the question. You now agree that Abraham was from Hebron, near Jerusalem where Muslims visit his grave site.

So how did Abraham, his wife Sarah's bondwoman Hagar, and her son Ishmael, travel 1200 kilometers across unknown, uncharted, untraveled desert, from Jerusalem to Mecca, 800 years before the first caravan ever made the trip, and did it on a single skin of water?

How did Abraham make the 1200 kilometer trip back home without even that single waterskin?

How did Abraham make it back down to help Ishmael build the Kaaba?

What were Abraham's WIFE Sarah and Isaac doing in Hebron, while Abraham was in Mecca with Sarah's slave Hagar?

How did Hagar travel the 1200 kilometers up to Egypt and back when she fetched Ishmael's wife?

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles from Mecca to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

On flying donkey-mules?

If you try to dodge these questions again I am going to give you a time out to think about and research the answers to the questions. If and when you return it will still be your first and only assignment.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 13, 2011, 02:43:21 AMDo not bring a story from the bible that says , beucase also i can  bring form the HOLY QURAN THE ONLY WORD OF GOD THAT HAS NOT CHANGED AND WILL NEVER CHNAGE .

Indeed it's just as big a mess as Mohammed and his co-authors left it in.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2285.0

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 13, 2011, 02:43:21 AM
But Mohammed said I come from a blood clo ? Indeed Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM  was from blood clot , but i was not saying it to say he was not . But you misunderstood why i post it . if you read your repleys you  will you about banning me like i fear you , so i was telling i fear Non but God , on you and by the way why did you delet my post  huh i will post them agian .

No posts have been deleted. If you posted gratuitous blasphemy, or proof texted unrelated verses from the Old Testament, particularly without a genuine interest in understanding, it was moved here.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=780.0

We muslim do not regect any prophet PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL  , i am going to create topic about it.

First there is no histoical evidance that Abrahm did not go Mecca as long as you can not dissprove it , it make no sense . According to hisotian Mecca exist before that time of christian Pagan Era :

Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:

   ..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of
Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.

Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.

   And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[2]

It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.

   For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.

Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference . G E von Grunebaum says:

   Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.


You can belive that God has beggton sun , or he became a man , but still you can not belive that , God can not Help his prophet PEACE UPON HIM to Mecca, according to you , you said the IShmael was thrown out , who can he come back when he buried his father with his beloved brother  PEACE BE UPON THEM .



"Further, the skin of water was not for the whole journey, but it is what Hagar was left with at the conclusion of the initial journey, when Abraham (as) left her and she then found the well of Zam Zam."masooma

Quote from: Peter on January 05, 2011, 07:46:42 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 04, 2011, 03:32:28 PMSecondaly the Nazis has nothing to do with muslims , .......

This is a patent lie since you have already been show the evidence. The Mufti of Jerusalem was up to his eyeballs with Hitler including TWO ISLAMIC PANZER DIVISIONS in Hitler's army.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 04, 2011, 03:32:28 PM...... actually hittlar him self has said that he is going to kill all semtic people , and that arab are lowers than animels .

That's right. However he found the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem to be a useful tool in their shared goal of genocide of Jews. His Arab dupe who, along with all the other Muslim dupes in Hitler's army, housed so much hatred in their hearts for Jews that they joined forces with Hitler. Just as you indicate, extermination of Arabs would have been on his short list, of people to exterminate next. He just happened to hate Jews more than he hated Arabs so he started with them.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 04, 2011, 03:32:28 PM
I am not going to waste alot of time with you deleting my post , ......

I have never deleted a post of yours and you know it. There of course is no need to censor in this forum because the truth will always prevail.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 04, 2011, 03:32:28 PM...... i will show you how civiliced people you are , Nazis western , ..........

But as you could see from the photos, and the historical record attests, it was Muslims that were with the Nazis, and it was the west that kicked the Nazi's butts and liberated the Jews and the rest of the oppressed.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 04, 2011, 03:32:28 PM........ who only know who to blame others for their problem . did you know the fact that jews were leaving with muslims when the F***ing westerns Crusaders has destroyed jersulam

Anywhere Jews were living with Muslims they were living under dhimmitude at best. And then only as long as they paid the Jizya penalty tax. The Mafia style "protection" tax to protect them from their Islamic masters.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2098.0

Now you have a lot of ground to cover before you raise any additional subjects my friend. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg9368#msg9368

No that picture proves nothign if , just go to google search fro muslims who portected jews , and it was done by jews man , also to mention out in Islamic Golden age  Jews were running to muslims to protec them from evil Catholic , who were genocid them . So msulims did not have any problem living with Jews until they came and Inavde jerusalem , and to point out there a lot of jews in yaman and Iran who are livng happily  there .

And to point out we mulims we do  not follow a Mufty, you took the idead from your evil pagan Satanic worshiper , so called Chruch who were controling you  . Wrong as porved muslims were not historically with Nazis , actully it was you killed the jews , because you wont them to out of the western world to jeruselam but as Allah said it will be taken back when we get back to our religon. Western were with genceod of Bosnian , and Communism who killed more 20 million muslims in 20 century . speak of your civilized way of thinking .

dhimmitude  at best ? biggest lair that the biggest lie of your history has proved that you sick Pagan barbairns who invaded the Muslims and jews and Orthdox and aermiene , you exterminted them all , with out any mercy . and later they drink their blood and eat their meat . What filthy peopel.

To point out the fact Hitlar himself was Catholci , and histroy prove it but you still try to attrubite to other peopel like so called mufit of Jeruselam . You mistakes is your and you will never attrubite to other people . Sickness is in you . always blaming the others .





Also i find hard to argue with pagan worshipers who always change thes subject to other things , but Allah the Al Mighty will help me for as you said truth wll pervial .

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on January 05, 2011, 08:24:29 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 04, 2011, 03:32:28 PM
As said long time ago you can not find an excuse to  kill other people because you have noble prizes . Secondaly the Nazis has nothing to do with muslims , actually hittlar him self has said that he is going to kill all semtic people , and that arab are lowers than animels .
I am not going to waste alot of time with you deleting my post , i will show you how civiliced people you are , Nazis western , who only know who to blame others for their problem . did you know the fact that jews were leaving with muslims when the F***ing westerns Crusaders has destroyed jersulam

SalahDinThe2nd, I don't know what possessed you to arbitrarily stop by. You are certainly welcome to do so and contribute to the dialogue. BUT you will maintain a civil tongue while you do so. Do not drop the F-bomb again.

oh realy than why you do not tell you very lovely friend who called Saint peter , who always  make says very bad words about mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM , and until he stops there is no need for me to stop droping the F - Bomb as you call it .

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:31:27 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:57:04 PM

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on January 10, 2011, 08:14:45 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 02:57:06 AM
No i am not drudging anyone , Deedat May Allah bless him is Greator than you . And surely i watch his debate with Christians
Lol . The Comoforter is Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM and  again Caomforter is also an english word , jesus , Peter is Greek , Pual is Greek . I have some doubt too , but still why he will do that , it does not make any difference if Mohamed was said in Armemine , the lanuage if Jesus peace be upon him . if you watch careful you will hear , that he was saying it when was speaking about the "Comforter " . So are you saying the Holy Spirit he name called The most praised  when transleted to english . If so, then you solved what Muslims and Christian were aruging about .

Your opinion of Deedat is of no relevance to me. He was a liar who made up his own verse by adding words to Scripture to keep his Bible ignorant minions in the dark. And I have already told you it doesn't matter what was said in a MOVIE because that is what it was. A MOVIE.

The translator (Abdul Hamid Siddiqi) of Sahih Muslim notes that this is in reference to the 'Comforter' that Jesus spoke of.



        In the Sirat Rasulallah, the earliest extant biography of Muhammad written by Ibn Ishaq, a specific claim is made asserting that Muhammad is the Comforter.  On pages 103 and 104 of Guillaume's translation (The Life of Muhammad), the alleged prediction is described.  Ishaq's work mis-quotes the New Testament and takes it out of context, and references several non-biblical works in his support as proof.  Below is part of the quote from “The Life of Muhammad”, pages 103, 104:  [4]



        Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following.  It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary: ...”But when the Comforter has come whom God will send to you from the Lord’s presence, and the spirit of truth which will have gone forth form the Lord’s presence he (shall bear) witness of me and ye also, because ye have been with me from the beginning. I have spoken unto you about this that ye should not be in doubt.” The Munahhemana (God bless and preserve him!) in Syriac is Muhammad: in Greek he is the paraclete.





Guillaume notes that,

“The passage quoted is John 15:23ff.  It is interesting to note that the citation comes from the Palestinian Syriac Lectionary and not from the ordinary Bible of the Syriac-speaking Churches.  â€¦The most interesting word is that rendered “Comforter” which we find in the Palestinian Lectionary, but all other Syriac versions render “paraclete”, following the Greek.  This word was well established in the Hebrew and Aramaic speaking world.  The menahhemana in Syriac means the lifegiver and especially one who raises from the dead.  Obviously such a meaning is out of place here and what is meant is one who consoles and comforts people for the loss of one dear to them.  This is the meaning in the Talmud and Targum.  It ought to be pointed out that by the omission of the words “that is written” before “in the law” quite another meaning is given to the prophecy.  The natural rendering would be “the word that concerns the Namus must be fulfilled”.

         Guillaume is stating that the Ibn Ishaq quote is corrupted, i.e. inaccurate or tampered with.  Ibn Ishaq recorded versions of history that he heard from sources he assumed to have some degree of reliability.  However, they could have been mistaken or Ibn Ishaq could have altered the material to fit his understanding.  Additionally, Ibn Ishaq often records conflicting versions of historical events.  He would record historical information that he himself disagreed with, or doubted, in order to record plausible historic options.

First, let the New Testament texts speak for themselves. They clearly state that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.  There is no ambiguity about this.  Consequently Muhammad is not the Comforter based upon what the Bible explicitly states.

Second let us take the context of the texts into account.  If you are going to understand any passage of Scripture you must understand its context.  When Jesus spoke these words in John it was His last ministerial time with His disciples prior to His death, crucifixion, and resurrection.  Jesus is being very intimate with them.  Understand then, when he speaks to them He is including them â€" these very disciples, specifically.  These are the men He knew best and loved; they were His friends.  These were His final words to them, and He wanted them to know what was in store.

 Therefore, knowing that these passages of John are being spoken intimately between Jesus and His disciples there are several key points we can discover concerning the Comforter and His relationship with Jesus’ disciples.

John 14:16 â€" And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

The Comforter will be with these disciples forever.  Jesus promised the Comforter would be with these disciples forever.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he wasn't born until over 500 years later - following the deaths of these disciples.  He was born around 570 and died around 632 AD.

John 14:17 â€" But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you.

The Comforter lives with the disciples already now and will later be 'in' them.   The Holy Spirit came to the disciples and indwelt them.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because first he wasn't around at the time when Jesus was speaking to his disciples nor second could he ever be in any of the disciples.  The Greek word is 'en', and it means 'right inside'.  Jesus is saying that the Comforter will be 'right inside' of the disciples.

John 14:26 â€" The Comforter is specifically described as the Holy Spirit.   The Comforter is not a man.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he was never the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 â€" The Comforter will be sent in Jesus' name.  The Holy Spirit represented the Lord on earth.  No Muslim believes that Muhammad was sent by God in Jesus name.  Muhammad did not come in Jesus' name, as the apostle of Jesus, rather he came in his own name with his own questionable “revelations”.

John 14:26 â€" But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

The Comforter will teach these disciples and remind them of what Christ said to them.  As the early Christians grew the Holy Spirit taught them.  Muhammad is not the Comforter because he never knew the disciples and he didn't teach these disciples, and Muhammad never reminded the disciples of what Christ said.

John 15:26 â€" When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

The Comforter would be sent to these disciples.  These disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  Muhammad was never sent to these disciples.

John 16:13 â€" But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

The Comforter will guide these disciples into all truth.  These disciples (and others) grew in the knowledge of God through the revelations from the Holy Spirit.  Muhammad never guided these disciples into any truth.

John 16:13 â€" He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Comforter will speak to these disciples.  These disciples grew to know the leading of the Holy Spirit, i.e. they knew His voice.  Muhammad never spoke to these disciples.

John 16:14 â€" He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.  All that belongs to the Father is mine.  That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

The Comforter will take from Jesus and make it known to the disciples.  Muhammad never knew Jesus and never took from Jesus and made it known to anyone.


The context of these passages shows clearly that Muhammad could not be the Comforter.  Jesus was not speaking of another person to come at a later date.  Jesus’ precious final words to His disciples were meant for them.  Jesus was not merely preaching a sermon to be analyzed and intellectually talked about through the centuries, rather, He was giving His the disciples with Him there His final commands, love, and encouragement.

Here's a question for you to consider: In Islamic theology, Muhammad rendered Jesus’ message fulfilled or ended because Muhammad brought God’s latest message to the people. Muhammad expected that true believers in God would accept Islam. Therefore, if Jesus was foretelling Muhammad, wouldn’t Jesus be prophesying that his ministry will be rendered void by the Paraclete? Read the context of the passages and decide.

Further, to fulfill exactly what Jesus foretold concerning the Comforter and His relationship with the disciples, the New Testament records the fulfillment of the coming of the Holy Spirit and the disciples receiving Him.  The disciples received the Comforter - the Holy Spirit, on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:3, 4.  The Comforter was now “in” the disciples and He remained “in” them from then on and taught them â€" just as Jesus had said He would.

THE EARLY CHURCH’S VIEW OF THE COMFORTER



        The writings of the early Church Fathers also mention the Comforter, or Paraclete.  Below are some of their statements on His identity.  These early Church Fathers lived during the first 3 centuries of Christianity.



Note:  Quotes are taken from “The Ante-Nicene Fathers” edited by Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, AGES Software, Albany, Oregon© 1996, 1997   [5]





THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE PHILIPPIANS

Page 224

“What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete.





FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS

Page 1155

The old things which were done by the prophets and escape the observation of most, are now revealed to you by the evangelists. “For to you,” he says, “they are manifested by the Holy Ghost, who was sent;” that is the Paraclete, of whom the Lord said, “If I go not away, He will not come.”





TERTULLIAN AGAINST PRAXEAS;

Page 1083

He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost.



Page 1094

Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter ... even the Spirit of truth,”





ORIGEN DE PRINCIPIIS, BOOK 2, CHAPTER 7

ON THE HOLY SPIRIT

It is time, then, that we say a few words to the best of our ability regarding the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord and Savior in the Gospel according to John has named the Paraclete.



We must therefore know that the Paraclete is the Holy Spirit, who teaches truths ...



But the Paraclete, who is called the Holy Spirit, ...



In the case of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete ...



        Above are the statements of 4 of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers.  They state that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.  From the time of Jesus through the history of the early church the early Christians believed that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit.  There was no confusion or uncertainty on their part regarding the identity of the Comforter.





QUESTIONS AND ASSERTIONS ABOUT THE COMFORTER



        There exist some very good questions concerning the Comforter and these need to be answered.  Also, there are some Muslim assertions that bear a closer examination.  I will try to answer the questions, and assess the assertions.





1)       QUESTION ON WHO JESUS MEANT BY “YOU” WHEN ADDRESSING THE DISCIPLES REGARDING THE COMFORTER



QUESTION:

        Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad used to say 'you' to their followers but really it was a general expression for those who follow their teachings.  For example, Jesus told his followers that they would see him coming back to the earth and all of them have since died.  Couldn't Jesus have meant the disciples in general, specifically the future ones, when speaking about the Comforter?



ANSWER:

        Examine John chapters 13 through 17.  This was the time when Christ was alone with His disciples.  His actions and dialog with them were very personal.  He washed their feet, predicted His betrayal, comforted them, foretold the coming of the "Comforter", taught them about 'abiding' in Him, foretold tribulation for them, and said a most intimate prayer (chapter 17) for them and Himself.  If you review all of this, you will see that Jesus was not speaking in a general term of 'you', to the possible exclusion of these men, but at the very least He was speaking to those with Him â€" His disciples.  And later on they experienced what Jesus foretold â€" they “received” the Comforter.



        I encourage all Muslims to read John chapters 13 through 17.  Be sincere in your reading, ask God to guide you.  You will see that Jesus was speaking very dearly to His disciples.

You are the only lair here you trash does not have anything to do with Ahamed Deedat . He made the bible for him self ? Always the saem shit , that you keep repeating many times i hope you read this and say it was from Ahamed deedat two , this is what the bible contian :


Women's vaginas taste like "wine"

If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me.  I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates.  His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."
Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies."  
"My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts
"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine.   Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you!  Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love (i.e., semen) more than wine. How right they are to adore you!"
"How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands.  Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine.   Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies.  Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle.  Your neck is like an ivory tower.  Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbi.
.......
I said 'I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.'  May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine





Tell me if Ahmed Deedat has anything to do with it.

This is in your bible , like it or not :
rophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1.      
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:
    


Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

Blasphemous lie. That is a prophecy of the Messiah covered in the Mohammedan wishful fantasy section.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=219.0

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:04:44 PM
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and     he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses   (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

Christians AND Jews understand it is a prophecy of the Messiah.
Christians understand it better because it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:04:44 PM

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will  
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

i)      


Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii)      
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)      
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)
    

Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) .......

That's right! Exactly and specifically cut out of God's covenant with Isaac.

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:04:44 PM........ and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv)      
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said,     "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)      
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)      
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring   any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

Absolutely preposterous bunch of foolish false presumption.

Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

Yet it seems Mohammed was too mentally challenged to even learn how to read.

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:04:44 PM
2.      
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19
    


"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will     require it of him."

That's how we can know you are spewing nothing but filthy blasphemous lies.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So you have been warned regarding your fate for rejecting Jesus Christ to follow a 7th century fraud.

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM was not able to read that is true and that is mrical , who did someone who did not know how read and write was able to say such wisdom, which proves it is from God.

I am follow and beileve in jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM as prophet , but as Mythical son of GOd , no sorry i can not say so . Your mythical Trintiy and pagan corss is nothing but shit that came out of pagan cult and enemy of christ , it has nothing to do with what jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM .


"Christians AND Jews understand it is a prophecy of the Messiah.
Christians understand it better because it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ." funny words boy!!

If jews understood it as you claim why they do not believe in the mythical beggton son of God , who born without sexual intercourse but yet Gospols writer , two of them created to different series of forfathers ,  and the only two names they agree on is Jamas and David . Funny and it was supposd to be from God .

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:04:44 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:57:04 PM

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on January 10, 2011, 08:14:45 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 02:57:06 AM
No i am not drudging anyone , Deedat May Allah bless him is Greator than you . And surely i watch his debate with Christians
Lol . The Comoforter is Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM and  again Caomforter is also an english word , jesus , Peter is Greek , Pual is Greek . I have some doubt too , but still why he will do that , it does not make any difference if Mohamed was said in Armemine , the lanuage if Jesus peace be upon him . if you watch careful you will hear , that he was saying it when was speaking about the "Comforter " . So are you saying the Holy Spirit he name called The most praised  when transleted to english . If so, then you solved what Muslims and Christian were aruging about .

Your opinion of Deedat is of no relevance to me. He was a liar who made up his own verse by adding words to Scripture to keep his Bible ignorant minions in the dark. And I have already told you it doesn't matter what was said in a MOVIE because that is what it was. A MOVIE.

The translator (Abdul Hamid Siddiqi) of Sahih Muslim notes that this is in reference to the 'Comforter' that Jesus spoke of.



        In the Sirat Rasulallah, the earliest extant biography of Muhammad written by Ibn Ishaq, a specific claim is made asserting that Muhammad is the Comforter.  On pages 103 and 104 of Guillaume's translation (The Life of Muhammad), the alleged prediction is described.  Ishaq's work mis-quotes the New Testament and takes it out of context, and references several non-biblical works in his support as proof.  Below is part of the quote from “The Life of Muhammad”, pages 103, 104:  [4]



        Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following.  It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary: ...”But when the Comforter has come whom God will send to you from the Lord’s presence, and the spirit of truth which will have gone forth form the Lord’s presence he (shall bear) witness of me and ye also, because ye have been with me from the beginning. I have spoken unto you about this that ye should not be in doubt.” The Munahhemana (God bless and preserve him!) in Syriac is Muhammad: in Greek he is the paraclete.





Guillaume notes that,

“The passage quoted is John 15:23ff.  It is interesting to note that the citation comes from the Palestinian Syriac Lectionary and not from the ordinary Bible of the Syriac-speaking Churches.  â€¦The most interesting word is that rendered “Comforter” which we find in the Palestinian Lectionary, but all other Syriac versions render “paraclete”, following the Greek.  This word was well established in the Hebrew and Aramaic speaking world.  The menahhemana in Syriac means the lifegiver and especially one who raises from the dead.  Obviously such a meaning is out of place here and what is meant is one who consoles and comforts people for the loss of one dear to them.  This is the meaning in the Talmud and Targum.  It ought to be pointed out that by the omission of the words “that is written” before “in the law” quite another meaning is given to the prophecy.  The natural rendering would be “the word that concerns the Namus must be fulfilled”.

         Guillaume is stating that the Ibn Ishaq quote is corrupted, i.e. inaccurate or tampered with.  Ibn Ishaq recorded versions of history that he heard from sources he assumed to have some degree of reliability.  However, they could have been mistaken or Ibn Ishaq could have altered the material to fit his understanding.  Additionally, Ibn Ishaq often records conflicting versions of historical events.  He would record historical information that he himself disagreed with, or doubted, in order to record plausible historic options.

First, let the New Testament texts speak for themselves. They clearly state that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.  There is no ambiguity about this.  Consequently Muhammad is not the Comforter based upon what the Bible explicitly states.

Second let us take the context of the texts into account.  If you are going to understand any passage of Scripture you must understand its context.  When Jesus spoke these words in John it was His last ministerial time with His disciples prior to His death, crucifixion, and resurrection.  Jesus is being very intimate with them.  Understand then, when he speaks to them He is including them â€" these very disciples, specifically.  These are the men He knew best and loved; they were His friends.  These were His final words to them, and He wanted them to know what was in store.

 Therefore, knowing that these passages of John are being spoken intimately between Jesus and His disciples there are several key points we can discover concerning the Comforter and His relationship with Jesus’ disciples.

John 14:16 â€" And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

The Comforter will be with these disciples forever.  Jesus promised the Comforter would be with these disciples forever.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he wasn't born until over 500 years later - following the deaths of these disciples.  He was born around 570 and died around 632 AD.

John 14:17 â€" But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you.

The Comforter lives with the disciples already now and will later be 'in' them.   The Holy Spirit came to the disciples and indwelt them.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because first he wasn't around at the time when Jesus was speaking to his disciples nor second could he ever be in any of the disciples.  The Greek word is 'en', and it means 'right inside'.  Jesus is saying that the Comforter will be 'right inside' of the disciples.

John 14:26 â€" The Comforter is specifically described as the Holy Spirit.   The Comforter is not a man.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he was never the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 â€" The Comforter will be sent in Jesus' name.  The Holy Spirit represented the Lord on earth.  No Muslim believes that Muhammad was sent by God in Jesus name.  Muhammad did not come in Jesus' name, as the apostle of Jesus, rather he came in his own name with his own questionable “revelations”.

John 14:26 â€" But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

The Comforter will teach these disciples and remind them of what Christ said to them.  As the early Christians grew the Holy Spirit taught them.  Muhammad is not the Comforter because he never knew the disciples and he didn't teach these disciples, and Muhammad never reminded the disciples of what Christ said.

John 15:26 â€" When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

The Comforter would be sent to these disciples.  These disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  Muhammad was never sent to these disciples.

John 16:13 â€" But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

The Comforter will guide these disciples into all truth.  These disciples (and others) grew in the knowledge of God through the revelations from the Holy Spirit.  Muhammad never guided these disciples into any truth.

John 16:13 â€" He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Comforter will speak to these disciples.  These disciples grew to know the leading of the Holy Spirit, i.e. they knew His voice.  Muhammad never spoke to these disciples.

John 16:14 â€" He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.  All that belongs to the Father is mine.  That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

The Comforter will take from Jesus and make it known to the disciples.  Muhammad never knew Jesus and never took from Jesus and made it known to anyone.


The context of these passages shows clearly that Muhammad could not be the Comforter.  Jesus was not speaking of another person to come at a later date.  Jesus’ precious final words to His disciples were meant for them.  Jesus was not merely preaching a sermon to be analyzed and intellectually talked about through the centuries, rather, He was giving His the disciples with Him there His final commands, love, and encouragement.

Here's a question for you to consider: In Islamic theology, Muhammad rendered Jesus’ message fulfilled or ended because Muhammad brought God’s latest message to the people. Muhammad expected that true believers in God would accept Islam. Therefore, if Jesus was foretelling Muhammad, wouldn’t Jesus be prophesying that his ministry will be rendered void by the Paraclete? Read the context of the passages and decide.

Further, to fulfill exactly what Jesus foretold concerning the Comforter and His relationship with the disciples, the New Testament records the fulfillment of the coming of the Holy Spirit and the disciples receiving Him.  The disciples received the Comforter - the Holy Spirit, on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:3, 4.  The Comforter was now “in” the disciples and He remained “in” them from then on and taught them â€" just as Jesus had said He would.

THE EARLY CHURCH’S VIEW OF THE COMFORTER



        The writings of the early Church Fathers also mention the Comforter, or Paraclete.  Below are some of their statements on His identity.  These early Church Fathers lived during the first 3 centuries of Christianity.



Note:  Quotes are taken from “The Ante-Nicene Fathers” edited by Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, AGES Software, Albany, Oregon© 1996, 1997   [5]





THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE PHILIPPIANS

Page 224

“What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete.





FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS

Page 1155

The old things which were done by the prophets and escape the observation of most, are now revealed to you by the evangelists. “For to you,” he says, “they are manifested by the Holy Ghost, who was sent;” that is the Paraclete, of whom the Lord said, “If I go not away, He will not come.”





TERTULLIAN AGAINST PRAXEAS;

Page 1083

He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost.



Page 1094

Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter ... even the Spirit of truth,”





ORIGEN DE PRINCIPIIS, BOOK 2, CHAPTER 7

ON THE HOLY SPIRIT

It is time, then, that we say a few words to the best of our ability regarding the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord and Savior in the Gospel according to John has named the Paraclete.



We must therefore know that the Paraclete is the Holy Spirit, who teaches truths ...



But the Paraclete, who is called the Holy Spirit, ...



In the case of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete ...



        Above are the statements of 4 of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers.  They state that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.  From the time of Jesus through the history of the early church the early Christians believed that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit.  There was no confusion or uncertainty on their part regarding the identity of the Comforter.





QUESTIONS AND ASSERTIONS ABOUT THE COMFORTER



        There exist some very good questions concerning the Comforter and these need to be answered.  Also, there are some Muslim assertions that bear a closer examination.  I will try to answer the questions, and assess the assertions.





1)       QUESTION ON WHO JESUS MEANT BY “YOU” WHEN ADDRESSING THE DISCIPLES REGARDING THE COMFORTER



QUESTION:

        Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad used to say 'you' to their followers but really it was a general expression for those who follow their teachings.  For example, Jesus told his followers that they would see him coming back to the earth and all of them have since died.  Couldn't Jesus have meant the disciples in general, specifically the future ones, when speaking about the Comforter?



ANSWER:

        Examine John chapters 13 through 17.  This was the time when Christ was alone with His disciples.  His actions and dialog with them were very personal.  He washed their feet, predicted His betrayal, comforted them, foretold the coming of the "Comforter", taught them about 'abiding' in Him, foretold tribulation for them, and said a most intimate prayer (chapter 17) for them and Himself.  If you review all of this, you will see that Jesus was not speaking in a general term of 'you', to the possible exclusion of these men, but at the very least He was speaking to those with Him â€" His disciples.  And later on they experienced what Jesus foretold â€" they “received” the Comforter.



        I encourage all Muslims to read John chapters 13 through 17.  Be sincere in your reading, ask God to guide you.  You will see that Jesus was speaking very dearly to His disciples.

You are the only lair here you trash does not have anything to do with Ahamed Deedat . He made the bible for him self ? Always the saem shit , that you keep repeating many times i hope you read this and say it was from Ahamed deedat two , this is what the bible contian :


Women's vaginas taste like "wine"

If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me.  I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates.  His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."
Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies."  
"My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts
"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine.   Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you!  Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love (i.e., semen) more than wine. How right they are to adore you!"
"How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands.  Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine.   Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies.  Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle.  Your neck is like an ivory tower.  Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbi.
.......
I said 'I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.'  May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine





Tell me if Ahmed Deedat has anything to do with it.

This is in your bible , like it or not :
rophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1.      
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:
    


Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and     he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses   (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will  
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

i)      


Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii)      
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)      
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)
    


Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv)      
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said,     "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)      
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)      
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring   any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2.      
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19
    


"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will     require it of him."

3.      
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:
    


It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

 4.      
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:
    


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad    
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad     (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet      present.


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:

Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.

1.      
John chapter 14 verse 16:
    "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.      
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:
    
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.      
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
    


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English      translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.  
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and    again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet    
Muhammad (pbuh).

4.      
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:
    
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he     speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.



Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.  (The Noble Quran, 2:79)"

Perhaps there were too many words for someone who seems to share his prophet's level of literacy. Let's try it in one verse that maybe even Mohammed could have read.

Jhn 14:26    But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

A fuller explanation you have already been given and this subject has it's own thread.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=224.0

Beyond the fact that it's preposterous to suggest that Jesus was talking about a 7th century antichrist to follow him in any but the relevant verses regarding false prophets.

All this nonsense in your head has EVERYTHING to do with Admed Deedat and his foolish lies.

The  hoyl Ghost was with jesus and the apstols and even in the old testament , how can you lie to the word of satan , sorry i mean God , which seems to be so evil . The only anitchrist is Saul the F***ing lair who lied about everything. Jesus was speaking about Prophet who will come after him , that will gauid us in to all truth , not fabraication as saul , Saul was contrudict what jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM said.

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 05:40:20 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:47:41 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 08:10:39 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel .

If you are going to try to say that Ishmael rode on an angel from Mecca to Hebron you are going to have to cite me some sources from witnesses, and not a bunch of hogwash that was written 2,500 years after Ishmael.
Where did you learn that Ishmael rode on an angel?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PMThe one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .

The Old Testament is THE ONLY RECORD we have of Abraham's times. PERIOD. Yet you choose to REJECT THAT RECORD because a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers CREATED PURE FICTION regarding events of 2500 YEARS EARLIER!!!! It's impossible for Tabari, Ishak and the rest of those clowns that followed Mohammed to have known anything about what happened thousands of years before.

Now click on this web search archaeological evidence confirms bible accuracy

The Gospel is the same as it was in the 1st century as it was in mohammed's 7th century when he said

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.

When Mohammed said that the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the know world for centuries. The same Gospel we have today.
So are you saying that Mohammed was stupid for saying that and you are so smart for claiming corruption?

Here's a video by a former atheist that thought about the bible the way you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiddSTtKpA

So instead of an answer, you instead turn to blasphemy against YHWH and His Word.
But blaspheming YHWH will never make Mohammed's ridiculous stand-alone 7th century religion any more true, than it will move Mecca even ONE INCH closer to Jerusalem. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME.

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

As i remember is used the Quote from the bible not form the Haith Nor the Holy Quran . if you could not see it i will bring it to you . Read what is in blue[/color]:

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre

You always speak about eye wittness , and quoting from the bible .

Are you not even aware that Christians, Jews AND MUSLIMS visit the place where Abraham was buried near Hebron? 1200 kilometers away from Mecca?
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm

Hahahaha . I did not says that he is burid in Mecca , what i said he came and built mecca , .........

Yet the ONLY reason you believe that is because a bunch of semi-literate southwest Arabian desert dwellers said Abraham built Mecca, and they said it 2500 years after Abraham was alive.
Do you understand how ridiculous it is for someone to believe something so preposterous and without even a shred of historical or archaeological evidence to back it up?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:47:41 PM........ you sick boy do not change what said.

Are you as illiterate as Mohammed? The question that you keep avoiding is...

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles from Mecca to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

And the only record you believe in from gospols that written yaers after jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was raised to heaven . Saul never saw jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM when he was on earth and yet he claims all this lies of him being a messanger of god.

historical or archaeological ?you do not have any Archaelogcical that proves that there was something called temple of Sololm , only in jews myths and christiany , prove to  me that he build it , prove to me that Ibrahim was there , prove it to me  you ca not prove . Do not bring a story from the bible that says , beucase also i can  bring form the HOLY QURAN THE ONLY WORD OF GOD THAT HAS NOT CHANGED AND WILL NEVER CHNAGE .



But Mohammed said I come from a blood clo ? Indeed Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM  was from blood clot , but i was not saying it to say he was not . But you misunderstood why i post it . if you read your repleys you  will you about banning me like i fear you , so i was telling i fear Non but God , on you and by the way why did you delet my post  huh i will post them agian .

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 06:26:20 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:30:01 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 09:23:59 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:00:54 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 11, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
I'm not kidding. Some Muslims actually believe this. In spite of the fact that the Quran denies Mohammed would perform any miracles.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/miracles-moon-splitting-according-to-the-quran/

Hello

The Holy Quran did not deny anythng you just do not know anything . Read this verse in the holy Quran

They say, 'Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The Unseen belongs only to God. Then watch and wait; I shall be with you watching and waiting.' S. 10:20

The unbelievers say, 'Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Thou art ONLY a warner, and a guide to every people. S. 13:7

But there's no point in arguing what the Quran is saying.
The difficulty for you my friend, is that the same bunch of "witnesses" that you earlier claimed witnessed the moon splitting are the same guys that pretended that Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers from Jerusalem to Mecca, 800 years before the first caravan ever did.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers that lived 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land, couldn't have had the foggiest notion as to what had transpired 2500 years previously. This is how we can know it was pure fiction. Another way is that there is no historical or archaeological record that attests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD. This is how we can know that the testimony of the so-called witnesses is absolutely without merit.

Now compare that with Old Testament prophecy of the crucifixion of the Messiah, with New Testament fulfillment, 600 years after it was prophesied.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0

Things like that are how we can judge the veracity of the witnesses, and the veracity of the books, as handed down to us from the time that those Old Testament witnesses made historical records of the events OF THEIR TIMES.

And the same one who said that he witness Jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was the one who said that jesus PACE BE UPON HIM was cursed for us , and your joke of the FAther , ......

Well YHWH is certainly you Mohammedans father but He is my Father because of the hundreds of verses that reveal Him as such. You reject Him because of the false prophet Mohammed and the same 7th century buffoonery of his boys that made you believe that the moon was split in two pieces.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:30:01 PM...... who begtton a sun is biggest lie , ......

But it's just as revealed through Old Testament prophecy almost a thousand years earlier. Of course you have to believe it because you follow Mohammed and his stand-alone 7th century cult.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:30:01 PM....... tell who many were   there when Jesus appeard Saul , huh tell me ? How many where there when Mary beggton Jesus and she was still a virgin . The same pagan folllowers , your religon is game . Prophecy ? again with all this lies , ................

Yet your false accusations are exposed through the many threads that discuss the prophecies and their fulfillment. Yet you falsely declare lies, because you follow the father of lies.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:30:01 PM............ we know that those who made the bible canon were already believe in Trinity and they chose it as religon because it agrees with their fake Pagan believe .

But Jews and Muslims recignize that God has a Spirit too. Does that make you polytheists? You see, you have to reject everything about the Gospel to follow Mohammed. Our job was to make sure you were well aware that you follow a stand-alone 7th century cult.

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:30:01 PMGod inspired this Fake Apsotol who has nothing to with writting with shit that is called the oldm testament .

Yet it's the ONLY record we have regarding YHWH of those times. But since you are filled with the spirit of antichrist you have to reject YHWH to follow Mohammed's alter-ego "Allah".

false prophet Mohammed ? Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM Is the Prophet , you are the one with idea of pagan believe that called Cross and sacrfies of the son of God , Yhwh is not my father . You are the only one who is filled with trash of the False Gaint Sual (Paul in Greek)  who made you believe in such story , that never exist and never the people in the western world will believe in it , that is why the gone to science and disbelieve in you so Called THE WORD OF GOD , it Shall be called satanic Words . Your bible says lies of the Prophet Jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM .


Believe ? I will never think to believe in such trash of pagan cult , who knows nothing about Judism and making fun of them self . The fact the you do not get is that Jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was Jew and he only sen to house of israel . Jews who own the old testament disagree with of Jesus being Son of  GOD , or GOD himslef in human form . And they called Lair , but still you try to say it is prophecy , indead it is prophecy of shit .

stand-alone  cult ? such trash exist in Christianity that has nothing to with teaching of Jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM. And God has spirit ? that has nothing to with polytheist that they are Three person , so 1+1+1 : 3 not one 1 it is fact that we know from the KG , you have ears and mouth and eyes , heart , skin , and many eles , did we say that you mouth is person and you ears are person , and you eyes are person . Tell me , it just the same .


To point i follow the Father of light and truth , Not father of Fabrication Saul The Serpent flithy pagan worhshiper. who believe in such trash . Anitchrist ? I am assume you ment to your self for sure because when i read so called THE WORD OF GOD , i see jesus been insult as sheep . what is that huh? another mythical animels of yours who 7 or more eyes i do ont remeber  for sure . but it is there .

Quote from: resistingrexmundi on January 10, 2011, 08:14:45 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 02:57:06 AM
No i am not drudging anyone , Deedat May Allah bless him is Greator than you . And surely i watch his debate with Christians
Lol . The Comoforter is Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM and  again Caomforter is also an english word , jesus , Peter is Greek , Pual is Greek . I have some doubt too , but still why he will do that , it does not make any difference if Mohamed was said in Armemine , the lanuage if Jesus peace be upon him . if you watch careful you will hear , that he was saying it when was speaking about the "Comforter " . So are you saying the Holy Spirit he name called The most praised  when transleted to english . If so, then you solved what Muslims and Christian were aruging about .

Your opinion of Deedat is of no relevance to me. He was a liar who made up his own verse by adding words to Scripture to keep his Bible ignorant minions in the dark. And I have already told you it doesn't matter what was said in a MOVIE because that is what it was. A MOVIE.

The translator (Abdul Hamid Siddiqi) of Sahih Muslim notes that this is in reference to the 'Comforter' that Jesus spoke of.



         In the Sirat Rasulallah, the earliest extant biography of Muhammad written by Ibn Ishaq, a specific claim is made asserting that Muhammad is the Comforter.  On pages 103 and 104 of Guillaume's translation (The Life of Muhammad), the alleged prediction is described.  Ishaq's work mis-quotes the New Testament and takes it out of context, and references several non-biblical works in his support as proof.  Below is part of the quote from “The Life of Muhammad”, pages 103, 104:  [4]



         Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following.  It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary: ...”But when the Comforter has come whom God will send to you from the Lord’s presence, and the spirit of truth which will have gone forth form the Lord’s presence he (shall bear) witness of me and ye also, because ye have been with me from the beginning. I have spoken unto you about this that ye should not be in doubt.” The Munahhemana (God bless and preserve him!) in Syriac is Muhammad: in Greek he is the paraclete.





Guillaume notes that,

“The passage quoted is John 15:23ff.  It is interesting to note that the citation comes from the Palestinian Syriac Lectionary and not from the ordinary Bible of the Syriac-speaking Churches.  …The most interesting word is that rendered “Comforter” which we find in the Palestinian Lectionary, but all other Syriac versions render “paraclete”, following the Greek.  This word was well established in the Hebrew and Aramaic speaking world.  The menahhemana in Syriac means the lifegiver and especially one who raises from the dead.  Obviously such a meaning is out of place here and what is meant is one who consoles and comforts people for the loss of one dear to them.  This is the meaning in the Talmud and Targum.  It ought to be pointed out that by the omission of the words “that is written” before “in the law” quite another meaning is given to the prophecy.  The natural rendering would be “the word that concerns the Namus must be fulfilled”.

          Guillaume is stating that the Ibn Ishaq quote is corrupted, i.e. inaccurate or tampered with.  Ibn Ishaq recorded versions of history that he heard from sources he assumed to have some degree of reliability.  However, they could have been mistaken or Ibn Ishaq could have altered the material to fit his understanding.  Additionally, Ibn Ishaq often records conflicting versions of historical events.  He would record historical information that he himself disagreed with, or doubted, in order to record plausible historic options.

First, let the New Testament texts speak for themselves. They clearly state that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.  There is no ambiguity about this.  Consequently Muhammad is not the Comforter based upon what the Bible explicitly states.

Second let us take the context of the texts into account.  If you are going to understand any passage of Scripture you must understand its context.  When Jesus spoke these words in John it was His last ministerial time with His disciples prior to His death, crucifixion, and resurrection.  Jesus is being very intimate with them.  Understand then, when he speaks to them He is including them â€" these very disciples, specifically.  These are the men He knew best and loved; they were His friends.  These were His final words to them, and He wanted them to know what was in store.

  Therefore, knowing that these passages of John are being spoken intimately between Jesus and His disciples there are several key points we can discover concerning the Comforter and His relationship with Jesus’ disciples.

John 14:16 â€" And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

The Comforter will be with these disciples forever.  Jesus promised the Comforter would be with these disciples forever.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he wasn't born until over 500 years later - following the deaths of these disciples.  He was born around 570 and died around 632 AD.

John 14:17 â€" But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you.

The Comforter lives with the disciples already now and will later be 'in' them.   The Holy Spirit came to the disciples and indwelt them.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because first he wasn't around at the time when Jesus was speaking to his disciples nor second could he ever be in any of the disciples.  The Greek word is 'en', and it means 'right inside'.  Jesus is saying that the Comforter will be 'right inside' of the disciples.

John 14:26 â€" The Comforter is specifically described as the Holy Spirit.   The Comforter is not a man.  Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he was never the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 â€" The Comforter will be sent in Jesus' name.  The Holy Spirit represented the Lord on earth.  No Muslim believes that Muhammad was sent by God in Jesus name.  Muhammad did not come in Jesus' name, as the apostle of Jesus, rather he came in his own name with his own questionable “revelations”.

John 14:26 â€" But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

The Comforter will teach these disciples and remind them of what Christ said to them.  As the early Christians grew the Holy Spirit taught them.  Muhammad is not the Comforter because he never knew the disciples and he didn't teach these disciples, and Muhammad never reminded the disciples of what Christ said.

John 15:26 â€" When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

The Comforter would be sent to these disciples.  These disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  Muhammad was never sent to these disciples.

John 16:13 â€" But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

The Comforter will guide these disciples into all truth.  These disciples (and others) grew in the knowledge of God through the revelations from the Holy Spirit.  Muhammad never guided these disciples into any truth.

John 16:13 â€" He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Comforter will speak to these disciples.  These disciples grew to know the leading of the Holy Spirit, i.e. they knew His voice.  Muhammad never spoke to these disciples.

John 16:14 â€" He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.  All that belongs to the Father is mine.  That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

The Comforter will take from Jesus and make it known to the disciples.  Muhammad never knew Jesus and never took from Jesus and made it known to anyone.


The context of these passages shows clearly that Muhammad could not be the Comforter.  Jesus was not speaking of another person to come at a later date.  Jesus’ precious final words to His disciples were meant for them.  Jesus was not merely preaching a sermon to be analyzed and intellectually talked about through the centuries, rather, He was giving His the disciples with Him there His final commands, love, and encouragement.

Here's a question for you to consider: In Islamic theology, Muhammad rendered Jesus’ message fulfilled or ended because Muhammad brought God’s latest message to the people. Muhammad expected that true believers in God would accept Islam. Therefore, if Jesus was foretelling Muhammad, wouldn’t Jesus be prophesying that his ministry will be rendered void by the Paraclete? Read the context of the passages and decide.

Further, to fulfill exactly what Jesus foretold concerning the Comforter and His relationship with the disciples, the New Testament records the fulfillment of the coming of the Holy Spirit and the disciples receiving Him.  The disciples received the Comforter - the Holy Spirit, on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:3, 4.  The Comforter was now “in” the disciples and He remained “in” them from then on and taught them â€" just as Jesus had said He would.

THE EARLY CHURCH’S VIEW OF THE COMFORTER



         The writings of the early Church Fathers also mention the Comforter, or Paraclete.  Below are some of their statements on His identity.  These early Church Fathers lived during the first 3 centuries of Christianity.



Note:  Quotes are taken from “The Ante-Nicene Fathers” edited by Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, AGES Software, Albany, Oregon© 1996, 1997   [5]





THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE PHILIPPIANS

Page 224

“What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete.





FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS

Page 1155

The old things which were done by the prophets and escape the observation of most, are now revealed to you by the evangelists. “For to you,” he says, “they are manifested by the Holy Ghost, who was sent;” that is the Paraclete, of whom the Lord said, “If I go not away, He will not come.”





TERTULLIAN AGAINST PRAXEAS;

Page 1083

He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost.



Page 1094

Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter ... even the Spirit of truth,”





ORIGEN DE PRINCIPIIS, BOOK 2, CHAPTER 7

ON THE HOLY SPIRIT

It is time, then, that we say a few words to the best of our ability regarding the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord and Savior in the Gospel according to John has named the Paraclete.



We must therefore know that the Paraclete is the Holy Spirit, who teaches truths ...



But the Paraclete, who is called the Holy Spirit, ...



In the case of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete ...



         Above are the statements of 4 of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers.  They state that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.  From the time of Jesus through the history of the early church the early Christians believed that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit.  There was no confusion or uncertainty on their part regarding the identity of the Comforter.





QUESTIONS AND ASSERTIONS ABOUT THE COMFORTER



         There exist some very good questions concerning the Comforter and these need to be answered.  Also, there are some Muslim assertions that bear a closer examination.  I will try to answer the questions, and assess the assertions.





1)       QUESTION ON WHO JESUS MEANT BY “YOU” WHEN ADDRESSING THE DISCIPLES REGARDING THE COMFORTER



QUESTION:

         Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad used to say 'you' to their followers but really it was a general expression for those who follow their teachings.  For example, Jesus told his followers that they would see him coming back to the earth and all of them have since died.  Couldn't Jesus have meant the disciples in general, specifically the future ones, when speaking about the Comforter?



ANSWER:

         Examine John chapters 13 through 17.  This was the time when Christ was alone with His disciples.  His actions and dialog with them were very personal.  He washed their feet, predicted His betrayal, comforted them, foretold the coming of the "Comforter", taught them about 'abiding' in Him, foretold tribulation for them, and said a most intimate prayer (chapter 17) for them and Himself.  If you review all of this, you will see that Jesus was not speaking in a general term of 'you', to the possible exclusion of these men, but at the very least He was speaking to those with Him â€" His disciples.  And later on they experienced what Jesus foretold â€" they “received” the Comforter.



         I encourage all Muslims to read John chapters 13 through 17.  Be sincere in your reading, ask God to guide you.  You will see that Jesus was speaking very dearly to His disciples.

You are the only lair here you trash does not have anything to do with Ahamed Deedat . He made the bible for him self ? Always the saem shit , that you keep repeating many times i hope you read this and say it was from Ahamed deedat two , this is what the bible contian :


Women's vaginas taste like "wine"

If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me.  I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink [i.e., her vagina's semen!], the nectar of my pomegranates.  His left arm is under my head and his right arm embraces me."
Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies." 
"My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts
"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine.   Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you!  Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love (i.e., semen) more than wine. How right they are to adore you!"
"How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands.  Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine.   Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies.  Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle.  Your neck is like an ivory tower.  Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbi.
.......
I said 'I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.'  May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine





Tell me if Ahmed Deedat has anything to do with it.

This is in your bible , like it or not :
rophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1.      
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:
     


Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and     he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses   (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will 
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

i)      


Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii)      
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)      
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)
     


Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv)      
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said,     "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)      
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)      
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring   any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2.      
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19
     


"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will     require it of him."

3.      
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:
     


It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

  4.      
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:
     


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad     
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad     (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet      present.


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:

Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.

1.      
John chapter 14 verse 16:
     "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.      
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:
     
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.      
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
     


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English      translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter. 
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and    again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet   
Muhammad (pbuh).

4.      
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:
     
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he     speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.



Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.  (The Noble Quran, 2:79)"

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 08:10:39 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel .

If you are going to try to say that Ishmael rode on an angel from Mecca to Hebron you are going to have to cite me some sources from witnesses, and not a bunch of hogwash that was written 2,500 years after Ishmael.
Where did you learn that Ishmael rode on an angel?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PMThe one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .

The Old Testament is THE ONLY RECORD we have of Abraham's times. PERIOD. Yet you choose to REJECT THAT RECORD because a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers CREATED PURE FICTION regarding events of 2500 YEARS EARLIER!!!! It's impossible for Tabari, Ishak and the rest of those clowns that followed Mohammed to have known anything about what happened thousands of years before.

Now click on this web search archaeological evidence confirms bible accuracy

The Gospel is the same as it was in the 1st century as it was in mohammed's 7th century when he said

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.

When Mohammed said that the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the know world for centuries. The same Gospel we have today.
So are you saying that Mohammed was stupid for saying that and you are so smart for claiming corruption?

Here's a video by a former atheist that thought about the bible the way you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiddSTtKpA

So instead of an answer, you instead turn to blasphemy against YHWH and His Word.
But blaspheming YHWH will never make Mohammed's ridiculous stand-alone 7th century religion any more true, than it will move Mecca even ONE INCH closer to Jerusalem. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME.

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

As i remember is used the Quote from the bible not form the Haith Nor the Holy Quran . if you could not see it i will bring it to you . Read what is in blue[/color]:

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre

You always speak about eye wittness , and quoting from the bible .

Are you not even aware that Christians, Jews AND MUSLIMS visit the place where Abraham was buried near Hebron? 1200 kilometers away from Mecca?
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm

FICTIONAL CREATION  ? They story of Trinity is biggest ficational thing in history , for God so loved the world .......... Only people with no brain will blieve such a trash . I hope for to see the light ,  instead of this rubbish so called Christianity , which actully Pagan religon made by pagan believe . The world is not waiting for you to light with such trash of your old Fake pagan story of God , and corss . Please before looking to what people has you should say what your religon has in it instead of going back and forth for nothing .

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 08:10:39 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel .

If you are going to try to say that Ishmael rode on an angel from Mecca to Hebron you are going to have to cite me some sources from witnesses, and not a bunch of hogwash that was written 2,500 years after Ishmael.
Where did you learn that Ishmael rode on an angel?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PMThe one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .

The Old Testament is THE ONLY RECORD we have of Abraham's times. PERIOD. Yet you choose to REJECT THAT RECORD because a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers CREATED PURE FICTION regarding events of 2500 YEARS EARLIER!!!! It's impossible for Tabari, Ishak and the rest of those clowns that followed Mohammed to have known anything about what happened thousands of years before.

Now click on this web search archaeological evidence confirms bible accuracy

The Gospel is the same as it was in the 1st century as it was in mohammed's 7th century when he said

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.

When Mohammed said that the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the know world for centuries. The same Gospel we have today.
So are you saying that Mohammed was stupid for saying that and you are so smart for claiming corruption?

Here's a video by a former atheist that thought about the bible the way you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiddSTtKpA

So instead of an answer, you instead turn to blasphemy against YHWH and His Word.
But blaspheming YHWH will never make Mohammed's ridiculous stand-alone 7th century religion any more true, than it will move Mecca even ONE INCH closer to Jerusalem. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME.

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

As i remember is used the Quote from the bible not form the Haith Nor the Holy Quran . if you could not see it i will bring it to you . Read what is in blue[/color]:

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre

You always speak about eye wittness , and quoting from the bible .

Are you not even aware that Christians, Jews AND MUSLIMS visit the place where Abraham was buried near Hebron? 1200 kilometers away from Mecca?
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm

Hahahaha . I did not says that he is burid in Mecca , what i said he came and built mecca , you sick boy do not change what said.

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 09:23:59 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:00:54 AM

Quote from: Peter on January 11, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
I'm not kidding. Some Muslims actually believe this. In spite of the fact that the Quran denies Mohammed would perform any miracles.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/miracles-moon-splitting-according-to-the-quran/

Hello

The Holy Quran did not deny anythng you just do not know anything . Read this verse in the holy Quran

They say, 'Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The Unseen belongs only to God. Then watch and wait; I shall be with you watching and waiting.' S. 10:20

The unbelievers say, 'Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Thou art ONLY a warner, and a guide to every people. S. 13:7

But there's no point in arguing what the Quran is saying.
The difficulty for you my friend, is that the same bunch of "witnesses" that you earlier claimed witnessed the moon splitting are the same guys that pretended that Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael traveled 1200 kilometers from Jerusalem to Mecca, 800 years before the first caravan ever did.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers that lived 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land, couldn't have had the foggiest notion as to what had transpired 2500 years previously. This is how we can know it was pure fiction. Another way is that there is no historical or archaeological record that attests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD. This is how we can know that the testimony of the so-called witnesses is absolutely without merit.

Now compare that with Old Testament prophecy of the crucifixion of the Messiah, with New Testament fulfillment, 600 years after it was prophesied.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0

Things like that are how we can judge the veracity of the witnesses, and the veracity of the books, as handed down to us from the time that those Old Testament witnesses made historical records of the events OF THEIR TIMES.

And the same one who said that he witness Jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was the one who said that jesus PACE BE UPON HIM was cursed for us , and your joke of the FAther , who begtton a sun is biggest lie , tell who many were   there when Jesus appeard Saul , huh tell me ? How many where there when Mary beggton Jesus and she was still a virgin . The same pagan folllowers , your religon is game . Prophecy ? again with all this lies , we know that those who made the bible canon were already believe in Trinity and they chose it as religon because it agrees with their fake Pagan believe . God inspired this Fake Apsotol who has nothing to with writting with shit that is called the oldm testament .

Quote from: Peter on January 12, 2011, 07:49:19 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 12, 2011, 03:44:20 AM
In Isaiah 34:7 it is written, "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls, and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness." Like the overwhelming majority of the Bible this is pure nonsense! To try and tie the Bible to God is an insult to our Creator

Sorry my friend but it's the artists of your pictures that insult the unicorn.
The unicorn is described as a large and aggressive animal that could not be domesticated. It most likely looked very much like a rhinoceros. The kind of animal that would have been killed to extinction because of it's uselessness and danger.
Nor did it fly like the fabled Zoroastrian flying camel, the Greek Pegasus, and Mohammed's ridiculous flying donkey-mule. At least the Zoroastrians and Greeks were smart enough to have fictional characters riding on their flying animals. Nobody was stupid enough to claim they rode on it themselves. That's why so many in Mohammed's day left his phony religion after hearing his ridiculous tale. What's your excuse?

i am the one who shall sorru , the unicorn in pagan legends is like Horse with corn , and the picture is just representing the lie of the bible . well they have a lot of it the bible is full of trash and mythical story  . No one left at that time , because the only believe in that time was Abu Baker may Allah bless him believe in him . You ridiculous claim of the bible being the word of god is the biggest joke in histroy . The Catholic church were forbidden peopel to read the bible just to avoid them from seen such cocktail  , a mix of the Word of Allah and the Prophets PEACE BE UPON HIM and works of mythical stroies from ancient kingodms ,  and the word of Pron and incest . All of the that and plus the Earth haing Four Corner was another riduclous of your book.

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel .

If you are going to try to say that Ishmael rode on an angel from Mecca to Hebron you are going to have to cite me some sources from witnesses, and not a bunch of hogwash that was written 2,500 years after Ishmael.
Where did you learn that Ishmael rode on an angel?

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 10, 2011, 03:03:33 PMThe one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .

The Old Testament is THE ONLY RECORD we have of Abraham's times. PERIOD. Yet you choose to REJECT THAT RECORD because a bunch of semi-literate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers CREATED PURE FICTION regarding events of 2500 YEARS EARLIER!!!! It's impossible for Tabari, Ishak and the rest of those clowns that followed Mohammed to have known anything about what happened thousands of years before.

Now click on this web search archaeological evidence confirms bible accuracy

The Gospel is the same as it was in the 1st century as it was in mohammed's 7th century when he said

Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.

When Mohammed said that the bible had been translated into every popular language, had been copied tens of thousands of times and had been read all over the know world for centuries. The same Gospel we have today.
So are you saying that Mohammed was stupid for saying that and you are so smart for claiming corruption?

Here's a video by a former atheist that thought about the bible the way you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiddSTtKpA

So instead of an answer, you instead turn to blasphemy against YHWH and His Word.
But blaspheming YHWH will never make Mohammed's ridiculous stand-alone 7th century religion any more true, than it will move Mecca even ONE INCH closer to Jerusalem. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS TIME.

How did Ishmael travel 1200 miles to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father Abraham's burial?

As i remember is used the Quote from the bible not form the Haith Nor the Holy Quran . if you could not see it i will bring it to you . Read what is in blue[/color]:

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre

You always speak about eye wittness , and quoting from the bible . I can bring many stories , that has no witness for example :

When jesus God of the Pagan worshiper entered Hell you did not say that did you .
When Saul The Serpent (PAUL ) said that he SAW Jesus and converts to Christianity
The unicorn animle , have you seen it ,  Tell me
Have you seen an angle .
Did God spoke to you as the christian say
Have you wittness Moses and Abrahim and Jesus , PEACE BE UPON HIM . Answer me . All of the fake bible were written by man that has no honor , who love sex and incest . Your bible is full of stories that will make peopel laught to death .

Enjoy reading you fake book .

".
Mohamed Peace Be upon him was  not riding on that thing that looks like woman , it was greek fable  ? huh you are right about one , thing . it was when your GOd was riding an angle that looks exactly like woman , Your God rides Beautiful women  to go heaven . Is he in need to go heaven ? can he go by himself as bible tell he created heaven and earth by himself .

About Al-Burāq , you said donkey not as the description says  larger than donkey, does not mean it is donkey , except if you can not see the difference  yourself



Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
   â€"Qur'an, Sura Al-Isra[2] .

the prophet PEACE BE UPON HIM gone to heaven and spoke to the other Prophets PEACE BE UPON THEM . Sick people of pagan worshiper  says that Mohamed is raper , let us say togather what the bible going to say about it :

17Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately.

18But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

Unicorn  
look to this unicorn , there is No fossil found about it yet tell me , did you Serpent paul invented this too , shame on him

In Isaiah 34:7 it is written, "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls, and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness." Like the overwhelming majority of the Bible this is pure nonsense! To try and tie the Bible to God is an insult to our Creator!

In Numbers 21:6 we find the lord of the Bible sending "fiery serpents" to torment the people. What a great guy this Bible god must be! It reads, "And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." And God is love??? To date, there never has been "fiery serpents." And I don't think there ever will be.



look to this shit of your relgion and solve it before you look to what other peopel has to say

Quote from: Peter on January 03, 2011, 12:34:39 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 03, 2011, 12:23:06 PM
Under increasing boycotts and pressure from the pagan Meccans, a weakened and precarious Muhammad accommodated the Meccan pagans by acknowledging the existence of the three pagan goddesses Lat, Uzza, and Manat, alongside Allah.

To our Muslim friends that keep trying to deny that "Allah" was the name of the pagan Quraish's moon god, rather than empty denials, would you please inform us as to just which pagan deity "Allah" WAS to the Quraish. The sun? Venus?
Does it really matter WHICH of the Quraish's pagan deities was named "Allah"?
Mohammed's father's name was Abdullah or slave of Allah.
Who can we presume that Mohammed's moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worshiping father was a slave to?

Why do you prostrate yourself 5 times a day, to the Quraish's black stone idol, whichever star or planet it represented?
Why do you prostrate yourself to the Quraish's Kaaba where the pagan Arabians venerated 360 idols - 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land?

I am not going to repeat the same thing that we already discussed :

The holy Quran Condemn Satan , so how can satan insulte him self in his books as you infidels claim . Tel me

What about Jesus according to the bible , when satan Tempated him . I am going to star a topic later about .



Why do bow to the idols and pictures of fake god that never existed ?
Why do you believe in book that is changed over time ? 

Quote from: Peter on January 11, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
I'm not kidding. Some Muslims actually believe this. In spite of the fact that the Quran denies Mohammed would perform any miracles.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/miracles-moon-splitting-according-to-the-quran/

Hello

The Holy Quran did not deny anythng you just do not know anything . Read this verse in the holy Quran

54  Al-Qamar
                    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain. (1) And if they behold a portent they turn away and say: Prolonged illusion. (2) They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts. Yet everything will come to a decision (3) And surely there hath come unto them news whereof the purport should deter, (4) Effective wisdom; but warnings avail not. (5) So withdraw from them (O Muhammad) on the day when the Summoner summoneth unto a painful thing. (6)


Read what is in red and you will see what is there

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:59:00 AM
After you are done answering those 4 questions, on those 4 individual posts, please answer this.

What were Abraham's WIFE Sarah and son Isaac (who God made His covenant with) doing the whole time Abraham is supposed to have been wandering the 1200 kilometers to Mecca on a single skin of water, with Sarah's slave Hagar and her son Ishmael.

Ibrahim PEACE BE UPON HIM gone to mecca after he left his son the prophet Ishmael PEACE BE UPON THEM both and ISAAC too . So he left them there and went back to them . When Ishmael PEACE BE UPON HIM was older he come back and build the Holy house Al kaaba .
As you see if Ishmael PEACE BE UPON HIM was dead or thrown out , what brought him back when he was a Ibrahim was daying according to your changing Bible :

Then Abraham gave up the ghost and died in a good old age, an old man, and full (of years); and was gathered to his people. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron� - (Genesis 25:8-9).


So he was with ISAAC PEACE BE UPON THEM and they both buried him in "CAVE" whatever his name it does not matter as long as  he was there .


Also i can ask when God Sleep ( What a  blasphemy  Again the lord) what happen to earth , what happen to people when Jesus PEACE BE UPON HIM was raised to the heaven , what happpen to everyone one earth when God Cries ( Another Blaspemy agains All Mighty Be Praised our lord and Savior ) .

Quote from: Peter on January 10, 2011, 04:39:51 AM
Try answering the questions this time. The questions are in bold font in the original posts.
Please visit each link and answer on those posts, at those links, not on this post.

1. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2286.msg9474#msg9474
How many people attested to WITNESSING Mohammed's ride on his flying animal (baraq), or even WITNESSED seeing the animal itself?

2. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2286.msg9476#msg9476
How did Hagar and Ishmael wander 1200 kilometers from Beersheba (near Jerusalem), to Mecca, on a single skin of water, about 800 years before the first caravan ever made the trip?

3. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2286.msg9479#msg9479
How did Hagar wander back up a thousand kilometers to Egypt, and back to Mecca with Ishmael's wife, 800 years before the first caravans ever did?

4. http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=2286.msg9480#msg9480 How did Ishmael make it 1200 kilometers up to Hebron, from Mecca, in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

1 - Easily as said before it is not important that how many peopel saw it or not , the Question is realy can you do it , as you when the Moon was split , alot of Qurishians saw it but , The Holy Quran and it is scientific Facts that was discoverd only in modern times , The Holy Quran . CAn you produce the like of it .Also mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM Cured  peopel in his life , in the name of allah

2,3,4 - I do ont believe in story of the bible that they went to egypt first befroe answering it  believe that Abrahiam took to mecca not Pardn desert :

14 Ibrahim :verses 37 - 39 : In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful. (37) Our Lord! Lo! Thou knowest that which we hide and that which we proclaim. Nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from Allah. (38) Praise be to Allah Who hath given me, in my old age, Ishmael and Isaac! Lo! my Lord is indeed the Hearer of Prayer. (39)

So i do not need to answer something which i do not believe in , but let is say it is true as posted earlier Using a Camal , when muslims fought the Romans and Crush them they gone to their using hores except if Flying Beautfull took them their after he put them at his back .

A multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels of Midian and Ephah; all those from Sheba shall come. They shall bring gold and frankincense, and shall bring good news, the praises of the LORD. Isaiah 60:6  Also ((Gen 37:25, 28; 39:1).)

That does not disprove anything . First you start at topic in my name and then you give orders to me about not posting any more , i would like to keep the posts at one place so i am going to answer it hear . The deal was not to start a topic befoer answering your repelys . so i did many times so i will star another topic someday in this week.

Have nice day .

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 04:14:10 PM
Then answer me this. How did Ishmael make it to Hebron in time to join Isaac at their father's burial?

Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

How did he do the 1200 kilometers in a couple days, before anybody else ever did? A flying camel?

Now look at the map again and you will see that the Bible paints a perfectly reasonable picture, that is also supported by archaeology and geography.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

All you've been fed is lies by Mohammed's 7th century so-called "tradition" creators. Writing thousands of years of history of Mecca without a single reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD.

More on Mohammed's genealogy.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1174.0

Flying Camal ? No An Beautiful Angel . The one that your God Rides accordin  to the bibel . Or By Satan who took Christ to up to the mountian or may be becasue God accroding to the bible is able to do anything . So he did help Him Because according to the bible God named him Ishmael and in another verses it was Ibrahim .

You are the one who is fed by lies , look to your dark age , look to the funny thigns that your books has to offer . like Sex,incest, killing the sons of sinner , Following the Joke of Paul The Serpent .

Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM enlighted the world , he encorughed to search and discover , but your christianity look to it as infidilty , Your books was add by many peopel , in old time and new times , Your book tell the story the Fake Cross that is taken from the pagan .
 

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 01:01:30 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 05:11:15 PM

Quote from: Peter on January 08, 2011, 08:17:49 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 07:50:38 AM
2- Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HIM did not invented the name , the name Allah was used long time when Ishamel PEACE BE UPON HIM come to Mecca The Holy site .

Please present the evidence for which you believe that Ishmael, who was never within a thousand kilometers of Mecca, was ever in the place where Mecca was eventually established, and was there about 1500 years before the historical evidence suggests that Mecca was settled.

Histoical prove ? i have something more than prove , we Arabs are thr biggest example for yours , we are desendent of Ishamel . Tell me your prove about him living in Desert of Paran

Now bear in mind that Jews, Christians and Muslims visit Abraham's burial spot near Hebron where he lived.
http://www.bibleplaces.com/hebron.htm
A little history
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/abraham.html

So. How about you start by you telling me how Hagar and Ishmael wandered 1200 kilometers from Beersheba, to Mecca, on a single skin of water, about 800 years before the first caravan ever made the trip.

As you can see by the map provided earlier, and archaeology in the link above, it makes perfect sense that the Wilderness of Beersheba is right where Bible scholars believe it is, and thus the account in scripture makes perfect geographical sense.

Using Camal accrdoing to the bible or Horses , plus he do not need to pass the water .

A multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels of Midian and Ephah; all those from Sheba shall come. They shall bring gold and frankincense, and shall bring good news, the praises of the LORD. Isaiah 60:6  Also ((Gen 37:25, 28; 39:1).)

Do not try to draw on maps , according to bible the earth has four corners  which can not be proven  now .


Oh and About the Sacrifice : IN THE NAME OF ALLAH the MOST MERCIFUL

    99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me
    100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
    101. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
    102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!"
    103. So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
    104. We called out to him "O Abraham! ...
    105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

“And when Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House (praying): Our Lord, accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing. Our Lord, and make us both submissive to Thee, and raise from our offspring a nation submissive to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us mercifully; surely Thou art the Oft-returning to mercy, the Merciful. Our Lord, and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy messages and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them. Surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.” (The Holy Quran, 2:127â€"129)


The  BIBLE :

Genesis 17:24-27: "And Abraham was ninety years old and nine when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him."

Genesis 21:4-5: "And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.

Genesis 21:18: "Arise, lift up the lad [Ishmael], and hold him in shine hand, for I will make him a great nation."

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 12:16:35 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 06:12:54 PMIf you want go ask jews about they will tell who are we desendet of . No jews have ever said such thing , the look to us as children of the servent woman refereing to Hugar our Great mother may Allah blesss her .  Sleep well For next day

Thank you for wishing me to sleep well.
I agree that Sarah's Egyptian bondwoman Hagar is the mother of most of Mohammed's middle-eastern followers. The problem for you is that YHWH has no covenant with Ishmael, but rather with Isaac. After Abraham made the mistake of taking his wife Sarah's advice and having a child with her bondwoman, God allowed Sarah to bear their son Isaac, in spite of her advanced age.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Gen 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [is] thy seed. 14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against [him] a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against [him], and lift up her voice, and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he [is]. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. 19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

You see? Abraham threw Ishmael out for mocking out Isaac, along with his mother Hagar, Sarah's Egyptian bondwoman. At the same time God promised to, and did, make a large and numerous nation of Ishmael's offspring as is later confirmed in the Old Testament. The 12 tribes from Ishmael's 12 offspring. Though the Ishmaelites were absorbed and disappeared within other peoples of the area, and mention of them ceased in the Old Testament.

By the time God chose to test Abraham's faith and ask him to sacrifice Isaac it would seem God no longer even recognized Ishmael as a son of Abraham.

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Prophets to christian do not make mistakes , and now you see Abrahm PEACE BE UPON HIM did it . As you know the old testament was written by Jews so do not expact to be Accurate .

How many time they the Day of Judgment and it did not simply unfullfilled prophecy .

Igonre My Question about That Ishmael Desendent are Alive or Did ? I asked before i read this repely . Are you saying that God is Lairs who is saying that He will make him a Gread Nation :

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac� - (Genesis 17:20-21).

You see A GREAD NATION  and Blessed so who can be disappread that easily , A blessing from God Shall Not be Broken or God will become human who changes what he says . Not only that , if it is not true according to it will be unfullfilled prophecy

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 12:06:46 PM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 06:12:54 PM
Can you prove that jesus  is dendent of David?

This is a Hebraism. Jesus was manifest in the lineage of David, just like it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=110&t=KJV#1
Confirmed in the New
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=david&t=KJV&page=38
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=david&t=KJV&page=39

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 06:12:54 PMdid you see who the two gospol who wrote about the subjects all use different father s to say so .

Why don't you start by looking at Old Testament prophecy of the crucifixion of the Messiah that was written about 600 years before the event, and about 400 years before crucifixion was even invented.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1007.0

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 06:12:54 PMGo search for it for youself . Can you prove that Jew are desdendet of Abrahm . The only thing you can give is something said by peopel .

The term is WITNESSES!!!!
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is MY BELOVED SON , in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22 ...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art MY BELOVED SON; in thee I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased.

Now why don't you tell me how many people attest to WITNESSING Mohammed's ride on his flying donkey-mule, or even WITNESSED the animal itself? You take ONE MAN'S SOLE WORD and ONLY because he said he did.
You believe he's a prophet SOLELY because he declared himself a prophet that has no fulfilled prophecy to his credit.
How many prophets in the Bible had to keep trying to convince people they were prophets by saying they were?

2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Donkey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! where did you heard such trash  . It was an animel looks like Horse winges . The prophets did , Abrahm , Jesus , Moso ..... PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL  And the Angels and God . Are not they enough . Or you are saying  that Normal peopel are better than prophets. What the moon that been split Many people have seen that From  Qurish .


The old testament does not support what said . You are justing say so . What about Unfulfilled Prophecies in the Bible as you . Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4:said the it was prophecy that jesus will be raised from the DEAD NOT to Heaven . Where was it in the old testament the same for him going to hell , which we know from the bible that God cannot be hell , and if so , it is No longer hell .
hen was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was priced, whom certain of the children of Israel did price; and they gave them for the potter's field as the Lord appointed me" (27:9-10). did you know that Jeremiah did not wrote anything simlilar to that .
Ezekiel, Chapter No 26 said . ‘Nebuchader, he will destroyed Tyre.’ We come to know that Alexander the great   destroyed Tyre  .

Quote from: Peter on January 09, 2011, 11:46:30 AM

Quote from: SalahDinThe2nD on January 08, 2011, 06:12:54 PM........ and now you the Great peter comes from now where , and say No he is not !!!

Ishmael and his subsequent 12 tribes inhabited the upper Sinai and area around the transJordan border. They were eventually absorbed into the northern Arabian tribes and migrated up into the fertile crescent. If your ancestry is from that part of the world, being Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Syria etc. then you likely have more of Ishmael in you than your Muslim brethren that live down in Yemen. It is unlikely that Mohammed was descended from Ishmael since Ishmael lived almost a thousand years before the Spice Route was established and overland travel along the Red Sea in Arabia was possible. Since about a thousand years had passed between then and Mohammed, some of Ishmael's ancestors may have mixed in with the Quraish.
However Saudi officials report that marriage among blood relatives "ranges from 55 to 70 percent in the southern part of Arabia" so back in Mohammed's day it was surely worse. So we can conclude that if there was any Ishmael in him it would have been little and late, since Ishmael was never within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD.
http://islamchristianforum.com/index.php?topic=1844.msg7612#msg7612

Yamen arab are different than Mohamed PEACE BE UPON HM . Arabized ? have you heard of it the term used to those who are desendent of Ishmael NOT from Yamen . And Qursih are From the Arabized . No they are not mixed . in the past arab peopel were isolated , before islam . Have not you seen that relative marriage in arab is very common . Yeah your old joke again ? Saint Peter let me tell you something , jews say that they are desndendent of Abrahim througth their Holy books , the same for muslims  it is written in the Holy Quran and the hadith.